Bernie's Religion

[BoSoxGal]

Well if we define "spirituality" as exclusively being somehow manifesting a belief in god or a higher power, then you are right, Meade and Jim. However, I personally think spirituality transcends belief and can be manifested in actions as well. If one acts not in one's self interest, but in the broader interest of others, then one manifests a spirituality reflected in their decision to not act solely in their self interest. and IMHO that is what Bernie is referring to.

One need not refer t a supernatural belief to be spiritual; I think what Bernie is saying is that we are all bonded together by a common bond (for want of a better word, perhaps as spirit?) which prompts us to reach out from our selfish cocoon and embrace the others, recognizing "The truth is at some level when you hurt, when your children hurt, I hurt. I hurt. And when my kids hurt, you hurt."

the prophet Micah sums this up best by saying--"and what does the lord require of you but to do justice and to love kindness?" and this is what Bernie expresses. He adds "and to walk humbly with your god", and IMHO this is what Bernie is embracing--walking the path that god walks, embracing the poor and unfortunate and caring for them as god would have us do. IMHO, that is spirituality, and one need not express a belief in a supernatural god to have it.

[rubato]

Bernies' Spirituality is as great as any. He is saying that we should act on the central precept. :



https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearc ... ersion=NIV

Bible search results
John 13:34
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

John 13:35
By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

Romans 12:10
Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves.

Romans 13:8
[ Love Fulfills the Law ] Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.

2 Corinthians 13:11
[ Final Greetings ] Finally, brothers and sisters, rejoice! Strive for full restoration, encourage one another, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.

Galatians 5:13
[ Life by the Spirit ] You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.

Ephesians 4:2
Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.

1 Thessalonians 4:9
Now about your love for one another we do not need to write to you, for you yourselves have been taught by God to love each other.

2 Thessalonians 1:3
[ Thanksgiving and Prayer ] We ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters, and rightly so, because your faith is growing more and more, and the love all of you have for one another is increasing.

Hebrews 10:24
And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds,

1 Peter 1:22
Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart.

1 Peter 3:8
[ Suffering for Doing Good ] Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble.

1 Peter 5:14
Greet one another with a kiss of love. Peace to all of you who are in Christ.

1 John 3:11
[ More on Love and Hatred ] For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another.

1 John 3:23
And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

1 John 4:7
[ God’s Love and Ours ] Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

1 John 4:11
Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

1 John 4:12
No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

2 John 1:5
And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another.


To 'believe' and do nothing is nothing.



yrs,
rubato

[BoSoxGal]

I agree; all that Protestant bullshit about good works not taking the place of faith was just a way to justify laziness and lack of interest in doing good works, IMHO.

<insert Meade rant here>

[rubato]

No one gives a fuck what you believe if you don't do the right hing.

But if you do the right thing it is a safe assumption that your beliefs are creditable.


yrs,
rubato

[MajGenl.Meade]

To 'believe' and do nothing is nothing

Good job that's what the Bible teaches then, innit? Just as it teaches that to do and to disbelieve is also nothing.

Every one of the nice quotes (thanks, rubato), assumes belief to begin with. These are instructions, commands, letters, etc. to believers from believers.

I don't believe a rant is necessary, bsg. I laughed at your joke, knowing that you couldn't be serious.

[BoSoxGal]

[BoSoxGal]

i m so chill these days it s a little scary ...

[BoSoxGal]

might even start multiple posting and of random youtubes

[oldr_n_wsr]

might even start multiple posting and of random youtubes

Oh please no. One is enough.

[rubato]

Well Gen'l, I have decided to reply to your question about 'what non-Christian. . . '

The officially recognized founder of this tradition answered the question of 'what do you believe?' from a reporter for the Chicago Tribune with a two word answer: All Truth. .... "

An excellent starting point.

Those who forget good and evil and seek only to know the facts are more likely to achieve good than those who view the world through the distorting medium of their own desires.
Bertrand Russell (1872–1970),

yrs,
rubato

[MajGenl.Meade]

Well Gen'l, I have decided to reply to your question about 'what non-Christian. . . '

The officially recognized founder of this tradition answered the question of 'what do you believe?' from a reporter for the Chicago Tribune with a two word answer: All Truth. .... "

Ah, OK. Well, we'll not argue about it, that's for sure. Otherwise we'd have to get into all the fake metal plates and cease to be friends

I attended a baptism with some of your folks - our neighbours up in Cleveland Heights - and their kids came to my wedding. Lovely people; much to admire.

[Big RR]

fake metal plates

what were they, plastic coated with a thin metallic coating?

[MajGenl.Meade]

No, completely covered in b.s

[rubato]

You are SUCH a mean little bigot. Their mythology is no more nor less plausible than yours the difference is that their community lives by principles more Christian than most. They tithe (which your text says you are supposed to, but mostly you don't). They have low rates of alcoholism smoking and poverty. They have an effective church welfare system. Strong family structure. They actually practice the dictum that you are to preach to all the world.


What is all of that against a little clumsy faux-King James English and a pair of magic glasses. Hmmmm ?

They're better people than most pseudo-Christians.

(Washington Phillips)

And so it goes

Washington Phillips Lyrics
« on: March 05, 2004, 12:52:31 PM »
Here are the original lyrics, found them just now in my songs folder. The sentiments are even more resonant today then they were then IMO

Denomination Blues Parts 1 and 2 (Washington Phillips, 1927)

(n.b. Ry Cooder plays this sequence of verses: 1, 2, Instr., 17, 3, 7, Instr., 15, 13, Instr.)

(Part 1)
1. I want to tell you, an actual fact,
Every man don't understand the Bible alike
But that's all, I tell you that's all
But you'd better have Jesus, I tell you that's all.

2. Well, denominations have no right to fight
They ought to just treat each other right. That's all

3. The primitive Baptists, they believe,
You can't get to heaven unless you wash your feet. And that's all

4. The only primitive that has any part
Is the one that does the washin' with the pure in heart. And that's all

5. Now the missionary baptists, they believe
Go under the water and not to wash your feet. And that's all'

6. Now the indian methodists, they believe,
Sprinkle the head and not to wash their feet. And that's all

7. Now the African methodists, they believe the same,
Cause they know denominations ain't a thing but a name. And that's all

8. Now the holiness people when they came in
Said "Boys we can make it by living above sin". But that's all

9. Now the church of God had it in their mind
That they can get to heaven without the furgamint (???) wine. But that's all

(Part 2)
10. You're fightin' each other, and think you're doing well
And the sinners on the outside are going to hell. And that's all

11. Now the preachers is preachin', and think they're doing well
All they want is your money and you can go to hell. And that's all

12. There's another kind of preacher that's high in speech
They have to go to college to learn how to preach. And that's all

13. But you can go to the college, and you can go to the school
But if you ain't got Jesus you're an educated fool. And that's all

14. That kind of a man, he's hard to convince
A man can't preach, son let me find And that's all

15. When these people jump from church to church,
You know their conversion don't amount to much. And that's all

16. When Jesus came here like dividing day
Gonna call the chief, tell him to drive the ghosts away. And that's all

17. It's right to stand together, it's wrong to stand apart
'Cause none's going to heaven but the pure in heart. And that's all

yrs,
rubato

[Burning Petard]

Well, the official story is that the fake metal plates or magic eye glasses had little to do with it. Joe Junior put a magic rock in to a hat and stuck his face into the hat. He saw words appear in the hat and he read them out loud while another person wrote them down. As soon as the words were written, those letters faded and a new sentence or phrase appeared.

No more mysterious than the source for the Revelation of John or 'A Course In Miracles' Naturally, 'The Loose Canon' has a much more rational origin.

snailgate.

[rubato]

You see?

Nothing here to offend sense greater than the idea that the world was covered in water (which is magically missing today).

And my personal method of evaluating religions based on the behavior of their adherents stands unassailed.



yrs,
rubato

[MajGenl.Meade]

Perhaps a slight correction, rubato? Does one judge the merits of Berkeley or MIT by the behavior of their worst representatives or by the philosophy of the institution itself? I certainly don't judge atheism by the habits, words and deeds of its most evil adherents but by the merits of the argument. A bad Christian is simply that - a bad christian. Similarly, a bad Buddhist is a bad buddhist. I'd prefer not to judge either by those who are bad at it*

The behavior of "believers" should be measured first against the internal consistency of the religion and then secondly against secular standards. In the first case, the test is for hypocrisy - are they or are they not exemplifying the faith? In the second, it is for societal value (or the reverse thereof) - is this a good thing or a bad thing?

"By their deeds shall ye know them" - Jesus.

*we learn that from Cleveland sports teams

[Sue U]

*we learn that from Cleveland sports teams

That's yer School of Hard Knocks right there. (Although you do have LeBron and the Cavs.)

[rubato]

Perhaps a slight correction, rubato? Does one judge the merits of Berkeley or MIT by the behavior of their worst representatives or by the philosophy of the institution itself? I certainly don't judge atheism by the habits, words and deeds of its most evil adherents but by the merits of the argument. A bad Christian is simply that - a bad christian. Similarly, a bad Buddhist is a bad buddhist. I'd prefer not to judge either by those who are bad at it*

The behavior of "believers" should be measured first against the internal consistency of the religion and then secondly against secular standards. In the first case, the test is for hypocrisy - are they or are they not exemplifying the faith? In the second, it is for societal value (or the reverse thereof) - is this a good thing or a bad thing?

"By their deeds shall ye know them" - Jesus.

*we learn that from Cleveland sports teams

As I have said many times now, the best way to evaluate any group is by the aggregate behavior of its members. I did not say the best nor the worst but the aggregate. Saying we could judge by the best or the worst is stupid I'm surprised you cannot think of a better answer that that.. You can also look at the aggregate behavior of their leadership.

By this measure the Mormons are better Christians than most putative Christians but the Amish, Hutterites, and a few others have them beat pretty badly.

But if you ask the question are Christians, overall, morally better than other religious groups the answer is plainly no. The G-20 has only become a better place to live by being less religious overall. Buddhists are nearly always less evil than Christians but the singular and recent example of Buddhists persecuting the Rohinga does leave a mark against them.


yrs,
rubato

[Big RR]

How do you judge aggregate behavior rubato? there are mormons all over the world and, even among the Mormons, one can only know, or even see, a very small minority. who can possibly know how the aggregate behaves? At best, you might have an idea as to how the ones you met behave.

And identifying leaders is also difficult; many Christians are congregational and eschew any real leadership--they have clergy, but the clergy are more teachers than leaders. among other christians there is a fairly defined leadership role of the clergy, and in some churches, like the RC church, clergy leadership is hierarchical and fairly broad. Mormons also have a fairly hierarchical leadership (or so I understand), so it might be easier to observe their leadership than, say, a congregational chrisitian church.