Bad Dog...

[MajGenl.Meade]

Oh for goodness' sake! Follow the bouncing ball:

I agreed with Sue that there's a difference between legislating against free speech (not nice laws) and against racism (fine and good laws) "because we say" there is.

Sue says "How in the world do you get that? It is absolutely not at all "because we say so"

I ask "Why not?"

Sue says "Because "because we say so" is not a competent justification for any law or public policy"

I then respond that if laws are not laws because we say they are, then who does say so? If it's not people, I can only assume Sue thinks laws are uttered by supernatural beings, aliens or dolphins.

How ironic that I'm defending the rule of law by society and getting pounded for it!

It's a fact - laws are laws because we say they are.

What the hell is so wrong with having said that? Isn't it what atheists believe?

[rubato]

"Because we say so" applies to laws that we the people have adopted. Why's that so controversial? It's just fact.

Because "because we say so" is not a competent justification for any law or public policy. It is not enough that a law is adopted by we the people, because we the people are frequently idiots. It must stand the test of constitutionality -- in this case, the prohibition on abridging the freedom of speech.

The MG has a knee-jerk fetish about the idea that anything which is currently believed to have come from scripture is not arbitrary and anything humans have done is. He cannot, or will not, understand that the ideas encompassing human rights are entirely secular in origin but are logically deriveable from principles of justice which cannot be found <<anywhere>> in scripture.

He has a time-shift problem. And he hasn't read anything in theories of justice so he isn't offended by ideas which offend you.


yrs,
rubato

[MajGenl.Meade]

I had no such notion in mind, rubato. I merely pointed out that laws are laws because we say they are and have three times expressed my agreement with the laws in question. I made no mention of arbitrariness.

Of course, it's a fact that "ideas encompassing human rights are entirely secular in origin but are logically deriveable (sic) from principles of justice" is another "because I/we say it is so". From what are principles of justice logically derived? Somewhere else that will, in the end, boil down to "because we say so".

However, that's not a debate here. All I've done is defend myself against criticism over a simple statement of fact.

[Lord Jim]

the ideas encompassing human rights are entirely secular in origin

Well, now that's bullshit too:

Do to others as you would have them do to you.- Luke 6:31

Leviticus 19:18
Verse Concepts

'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.
Leviticus 19:34
Verse Concepts

'The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the LORD your God.
Deuteronomy 10:19
Verse Concepts

"So show your love for the alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt.
Psalm 133:1
Verse Concepts

Behold, how good and how pleasant it is For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Proverbs 10:12
Verse Concepts

Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all transgressions.
Proverbs 15:17
Verse Concepts

Better is a dish of vegetables where love is Than a fattened ox served with hatred.
Proverbs 17:9
Verse Concepts

He who conceals a transgression seeks love, But he who repeats a matter separates intimate friends.
Proverbs 17:17
Verse Concepts

A friend loves at all times, And a brother is born for adversity.
Proverbs 24:17-18

Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles; Or the LORD will see it and be displeased, And turn His anger away from him.
Matthew 5:41-42

"Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.
Matthew 10:41-42

"He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward. "And whoever in the name of a disciple gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water to drink, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward."
Matthew 19:19
Verse Concepts

HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
Matthew 25:35-39

'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? read more.
Mark 9:41
Verse Concepts

"For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he will not lose his reward.
Mark 12:30-31

AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' "The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these."
Mark 12:33
Verse Concepts

AND TO LOVE HIM WITH ALL THE HEART AND WITH ALL THE UNDERSTANDING AND WITH ALL THE STRENGTH, AND TO LOVE ONE'S NEIGHBOR AS HIMSELF, is much more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
Luke 6:31-35

"Treat others the same way you want them to treat you. "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. "If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. read more.
Luke 10:27
Verse Concepts

And he answered, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
Luke 10:29-37

But wishing to justify himself, he said to Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?" Jesus replied and said, "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among robbers, and they stripped him and beat him, and went away leaving him half dead. "And by chance a priest was going down on that road, and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. read more.
John 13:14-15

"If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. "For I gave you an example that you also should do as I did to you.
John 13:34-35

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
John 15:12-13

"This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
John 15:17
Verse Concepts

"This I command you, that you love one another.
Romans 5:7
Verse Concepts

For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
Romans 12:9-10

Let love be without hypocrisy Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor;
Romans 12:15-16

Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly Do not be wise in your own estimation.
Romans 13:8-10

Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 14:19
Verse Concepts

So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.
Romans 14:21
Verse Concepts

It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.
Romans 15:1-2

Now we who are strong ought to bear the weaknesses of those without strength and not just please ourselves. Each of us is to please his neighbor for his good, to his edification.
Romans 15:5
Verse Concepts

Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus,
1 Corinthians 8:13
Verse Concepts

Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble.
1 Corinthians 10:24
Verse Concepts

Let no one seek his own good, but that of his neighbor.
1 Corinthians 13:1-8

If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. read more.
1 Corinthians 13:13
Verse Concepts

But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
1 Corinthians 16:14
Verse Concepts

Let all that you do be done in love.
2 Corinthians 1:6
Verse Concepts

But if we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; or if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which is effective in the patient enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer;
2 Corinthians 1:14
Verse Concepts

just as you also partially did understand us, that we are your reason to be proud as you also are ours, in the day of our Lord Jesus.
Galatians 5:13
Verse Concepts

For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
Galatians 5:22
Verse Concepts

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Galatians 5:26
Verse Concepts

Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.
Galatians 6:1-2

Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted. Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.
Galatians 6:10
Verse Concepts

So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.
Ephesians 4:2
Verse Concepts

with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love,
Ephesians 4:32
Verse Concepts

Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.
Ephesians 5:2
Verse Concepts

and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.
Philippians 2:2
Verse Concepts

make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.
Colossians 1:3-4

We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the saints;
Colossians 3:12-14

So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you. Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity.
1 Thessalonians 3:12
Verse Concepts

and may the Lord cause you to increase and abound in love for one another, and for all people, just as we also do for you;
1 Thessalonians 4:9
Verse Concepts

Now as to the love of the brethren, you have no need for anyone to write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another;
1 Thessalonians 5:11
Verse Concepts

Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.
Hebrews 6:10
Verse Concepts

For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints.
Hebrews 10:24
Verse Concepts

and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,
Hebrews 13:1-3

Let love of the brethren continue. Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it. Remember the prisoners, as though in prison with them, and those who are ill-treated, since you yourselves also are in the body.
James 2:8
Verse Concepts

If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.
1 Peter 1:22
Verse Concepts

Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart,
1 Peter 2:17
Verse Concepts

Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.
1 Peter 3:8-9

To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing.
1 Peter 4:8
Verse Concepts

Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins.
2 Peter 1:7
Verse Concepts

and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
1 John 2:9-11

The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now. The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
1 John 3:10-13

By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother's were righteous. read more.
1 John 3:16-18

We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoever has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.
1 John 3:23
Verse Concepts

This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
1 John 4:7
Verse Concepts

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
1 John 4:11-12

Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.
1 John 4:20-21

If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.
1 John 5:1-2

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
2 John 1:5
Verse Concepts

Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another.

http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Brotherly-Love

[rubato]

Maj Genl;

So you really don't understand why your suggestion is offensive to Sue U?

Interesting.



yrs,
rubato

[rubato]

the ideas encompassing human rights are entirely secular in origin

Well, now that's bullshit too:

Do to others as you would have them do to you.- Luke 6:31

Leviticus 19:18
Verse Concepts

'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.
Leviticus 19:34
Verse Concepts

'The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the LORD your God.
Deuteronomy 10:19
Verse Concepts

"So show your love for the alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt.
Psalm 133:1
Verse Concepts

Behold, how good and how pleasant it is For brothers to dwell together in unity!
Proverbs 10:12
Verse Concepts

Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all transgressions.
Proverbs 15:17
Verse Concepts

Better is a dish of vegetables where love is Than a fattened ox served with hatred.
Proverbs 17:9
Verse Concepts

He who conceals a transgression seeks love, But he who repeats a matter separates intimate friends.
Proverbs 17:17
Verse Concepts

A friend loves at all times, And a brother is born for adversity.
Proverbs 24:17-18

Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles; Or the LORD will see it and be displeased, And turn His anger away from him.
Matthew 5:41-42

"Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.
Matthew 10:41-42

"He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward. "And whoever in the name of a disciple gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water to drink, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward."
Matthew 19:19
Verse Concepts

HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
Matthew 25:35-39

'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? read more.
Mark 9:41
Verse Concepts

"For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he will not lose his reward.
Mark 12:30-31

AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' "The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these."
Mark 12:33
Verse Concepts

AND TO LOVE HIM WITH ALL THE HEART AND WITH ALL THE UNDERSTANDING AND WITH ALL THE STRENGTH, AND TO LOVE ONE'S NEIGHBOR AS HIMSELF, is much more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
Luke 6:31-35

"Treat others the same way you want them to treat you. "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. "If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. read more.
Luke 10:27
Verse Concepts

And he answered, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
Luke 10:29-37

But wishing to justify himself, he said to Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?" Jesus replied and said, "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among robbers, and they stripped him and beat him, and went away leaving him half dead. "And by chance a priest was going down on that road, and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. read more.
John 13:14-15

"If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. "For I gave you an example that you also should do as I did to you.
John 13:34-35

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
John 15:12-13

"This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
John 15:17
Verse Concepts

"This I command you, that you love one another.
Romans 5:7
Verse Concepts

For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
Romans 12:9-10

Let love be without hypocrisy Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor;
Romans 12:15-16

Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly Do not be wise in your own estimation.
Romans 13:8-10

Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 14:19
Verse Concepts

So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.
Romans 14:21
Verse Concepts

It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.
Romans 15:1-2

Now we who are strong ought to bear the weaknesses of those without strength and not just please ourselves. Each of us is to please his neighbor for his good, to his edification.
Romans 15:5
Verse Concepts

Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus,
1 Corinthians 8:13
Verse Concepts

Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble.
1 Corinthians 10:24
Verse Concepts

Let no one seek his own good, but that of his neighbor.
1 Corinthians 13:1-8

If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. read more.
1 Corinthians 13:13
Verse Concepts

But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
1 Corinthians 16:14
Verse Concepts

Let all that you do be done in love.
2 Corinthians 1:6
Verse Concepts

But if we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; or if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which is effective in the patient enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer;
2 Corinthians 1:14
Verse Concepts

just as you also partially did understand us, that we are your reason to be proud as you also are ours, in the day of our Lord Jesus.
Galatians 5:13
Verse Concepts

For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
Galatians 5:22
Verse Concepts

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Galatians 5:26
Verse Concepts

Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.
Galatians 6:1-2

Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted. Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.
Galatians 6:10
Verse Concepts

So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.
Ephesians 4:2
Verse Concepts

with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love,
Ephesians 4:32
Verse Concepts

Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.
Ephesians 5:2
Verse Concepts

and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.
Philippians 2:2
Verse Concepts

make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.
Colossians 1:3-4

We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the saints;
Colossians 3:12-14

So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you. Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity.
1 Thessalonians 3:12
Verse Concepts

and may the Lord cause you to increase and abound in love for one another, and for all people, just as we also do for you;
1 Thessalonians 4:9
Verse Concepts

Now as to the love of the brethren, you have no need for anyone to write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another;
1 Thessalonians 5:11
Verse Concepts

Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.
Hebrews 6:10
Verse Concepts

For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints.
Hebrews 10:24
Verse Concepts

and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,
Hebrews 13:1-3

Let love of the brethren continue. Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it. Remember the prisoners, as though in prison with them, and those who are ill-treated, since you yourselves also are in the body.
James 2:8
Verse Concepts

If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.
1 Peter 1:22
Verse Concepts

Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart,
1 Peter 2:17
Verse Concepts

Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.
1 Peter 3:8-9

To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing.
1 Peter 4:8
Verse Concepts

Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins.
2 Peter 1:7
Verse Concepts

and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
1 John 2:9-11

The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now. The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
1 John 3:10-13

By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother's were righteous. read more.
1 John 3:16-18

We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoever has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.
1 John 3:23
Verse Concepts

This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
1 John 4:7
Verse Concepts

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
1 John 4:11-12

Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.
1 John 4:20-21

If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.
1 John 5:1-2

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
2 John 1:5
Verse Concepts

Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another.

http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Brotherly-Love

You're a Catholic. None of you ever actually read the bible. Your Church made doing so as difficult as possible for as long as possible. That's why you're so totally clueless and such mindless authority addicts.


yrs,
rubato

[MajGenl.Meade]

No, I don't. And I thought you quite correct in this:

If by "we" you mean people capable of grasping the difference between self-directed and other-directed actions then yes. If by "we" you mean people capable of understanding that depriving another person of their legal and human rights is different from advocating that it be done, then yes. If by "we" you mean people who have a clear standard for where the limits of state power over the individual are based on protecting in the broadest way possible the liberty of the individual then yes.

That's a long-winded way of saying "we" as in "society" but basically it seems you understood. Why should Sue be offended?

[rubato]

No, I don't. And I thought you quite correct in this:

If by "we" you mean people capable of grasping the difference between self-directed and other-directed actions then yes. If by "we" you mean people capable of understanding that depriving another person of their legal and human rights is different from advocating that it be done, then yes. If by "we" you mean people who have a clear standard for where the limits of state power over the individual are based on protecting in the broadest way possible the liberty of the individual then yes.

That's a long-winded way of saying "we" as in "society" but basically it seems you understood. Why should Sue be offended?

Any why should anyone be offended when it is pointed out that biblical interpretation has such a firm time-stamp on it? All the things currently inconvenient are down-graded to a "that was then, this is now" sort of arbitrariness. Saturday Sabbath, eating pork, (all just as nasty as homosexuality in the OT) slavery (never repudiated anywhere in scripture) plural marriage (if it was good for them ...).

The logical foundation of the modern liberal state is far more consistent and better supported than anything in writ. So Sue is right to be offended.


yrs,
rubato

[Sue U]

Well, I wasn't offended, really, just bewildered.

I agreed with Sue that there's a difference between legislating against free speech (not nice laws) and against racism (fine and good laws) "because we say" there is.

Laws are what we say they are, of course. But the issue is, by what process do we say these are the laws, and distinguish between "good" laws that serve society's interests and "bad" laws that undermine them?

We do have the capacity to examine the consequences of the rules we establish and to make judgments about their utility and desirability. And to reassess our conclusions as may be necessary. All laws are laws because we say they are, but we also agree that no laws may violate certain underlying principles (again with the laws!). I suppose if you look at it that way, it's turtles all the way down.

[Jarlaxle]

What BigRR said. In a free society, there is absolutely no justification for governmental punishment or suppression of speech absent some genuine threat of incitement to immediate and serious harm.

Britain has not been a free society in a while.

[Scooter]

Yeah, the FEMA camps that never got built in the U.S., that's where they put them instead.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Laws are what we say they are, of course. But the issue is, by what process do we say these are the laws, and distinguish between "good" laws that serve society's interests and "bad" laws that undermine them?

Thank you, Sue. You raise a good question but perhaps not for this thread. In the end, as a practical matter, the "distinguishing" is done by whoever has the power at the moment. At least, that's how I assume it must appear to those who do not believe that ethics and morality have any standard other than human opinion, be it their own or that of someone else.

[Sue U]

What BigRR said. In a free society, there is absolutely no justification for governmental punishment or suppression of speech absent some genuine threat of incitement to immediate and serious harm.

Britain has not been a free society in a while.

"Free society" is of course an oxymoron. Any functional society is by definition a constraint on freedom. But it is also the role of a society to progress toward realization of its values and goals. And free societies can certainly choose among values and goals to prioritize and balance against one another. If a prime value is maximization of individual liberty, then any law infringing on individual liberty has to be justified by a compelling and countervailing societal interest.

Laws are what we say they are, of course. But the issue is, by what process do we say these are the laws, and distinguish between "good" laws that serve society's interests and "bad" laws that undermine them?

Thank you, Sue. You raise a good question but perhaps not for this thread.

I thought that was the question raised by this thread? To wit: between the YouTuber and the cops, which is actually the Nazi?

[Big RR]

Even more, as a practical matter, laws (and their interpretations) are only valid if we have the strength to enforce them. We can argue all we want about whether the southern states had the right to secede, but Lincoln and the remaining Congress employed the US armed forces to state that they did not. Likewise, Andrew Jackson, despite a USSC ruling to the contrary, removed the Cherokees from their land because he had the force to back it up, while the USSC did not. the same is true about racial integration in the 60s. However, these outward shows of force are few and far between, because they are potentially disruptive to society.

At its base, any society must have certain principles from which it operates or the consent of the governed is easily lost and the use of more force is necessary to control the people. Such a society cannot be maintained forever, as many will outwardly rebel against such force and fight back. Hence, we must govern our society based on laws which logically flow from the principles upon which it was established to "secure domestic tranquility". hence laws must be justified against these principles, which is a much higher bar than "because we say so".

Now, of course, we can ask--from where have those principles arisen? And the answer must include a recitation of "because that is what the people wanted"; but in a broader sense, these principles are more. They stem from something inherent to and recognized by all civilized societies. Obviously, different societies will differ in how laws are justified, and also in whether any particular situation permits/demands a departure from the ideal (such as the difference between the US and UK here), but these departures must be justified and understood. It is not the mobocratic "because we say so" that decides, but requires deliberation.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Laws are what we say they are, of course. But the issue is, by what process do we say these are the laws, and distinguish between "good" laws that serve society's interests and "bad" laws that undermine them?

Thank you, Sue. You raise a good question but perhaps not for this thread.

I thought that was the question raised by this thread? To wit: between the YouTuber and the cops, which is actually the Nazi?

Oh, I didn't get your point there. I thought that you were initiating an examination of "by what process do we say these are the laws?" Somewhat of a philosophical question - but I mistook your meaning.

I wasn't keen to move from the issue of banning Nazi speech - yeah or nay? - only to get to Big RR's (otherwise very) interesting "these principles are more. They stem from something inherent to and recognized by all civilized societies".

[Gob]

Britain has not been a free society in a while.

Not as bad as the US of A!!

The United States has fallen to 20th place in the respected Human Freedom Index, produced annually by the Cato Institute and Canada’s Fraser Institute.

The index measures nations on personal, civil and economic freedom.

The United States has fallen three spots since Barack Obama became President.

According to the Index, the freest nations in the world are, in order: Hong Kong, Switzerland, Finland, Denmark, New Zealand, Canada, Australia, Ireland, United Kingdom and Sweden. The United States is the only English-speaking country to rank outside the top 10.

[Big RR]

I would think Singapore would fall outside the top 10, and they speak English there as well. But I would like to see what criteria they use for the ranking.

[Scooter]

Have at it. The biases of the organizations that produced it are clearly evident.

[Big RR]

thanks Scooter; I'll look at it when I get a chance.

Roy

[Lord Jim]

I know the biases of The Cato Institute...(it's a Libertarian think tank; its been around for decades)...

But regardless of the biases, the hopelessly flawed nature of this "index" is revealed immediately in the award for "first place"...

According to the Index, the freest nations in the world are, in order: Hong Kong...

There are so many things factually wrong with that, one really need read no further...

It appears whoever came up with this "index" has a knowledge of the state of affairs internationally roughly equivalent to that of Donald Trump...

First of all, Hong Kong isn't a "nation"...it doesn't pretend to be a nation...it doesn't even play one on TV...

It is a wholly owned subsidiary of the People's Republic Of China; Hong Kong's official title is:

"Hong Kong Special Administrative Region of the People's Republic of China"

That makes it not a "nation" but a "Special Administrative Region"...a "Special Administrative Region" of one of the most politically oppressive totalitarian regimes on earth...

An "Administrative Region" so "Special" and so "free" that they aren't even allowed to hold free elections for their own local leadership:

Beijing Rules Out Open Election in Hong Kong

China's government ruled that candidates for Hong Kong's top leadership post must be approved by a committee heavily loyal to Beijing, providing a clear demarcation of how far it will allow democracy to proceed in the territory.

The decree capped months of blunt reminders from Beijing of who is in charge in the former British colony, and quickly drew ire from pro-democracy voices in Hong Kong, who have threatened a mass civil-disobedience campaign if they aren't offered "genuine choice" in 2017 elections.

"Hong Kong people have the reason to believe they have been betrayed," said Alan Leong, a Hong Kong pro-democracy legislator. "We cannot be the boss, we cannot have genuine choice," he said. Another lawmaker, Lee Cheuk Yan, said the fight for "true democracy" would continue.

Democracy activists in Hong Kong gathered Sunday evening outside the city's government headquarters, where police beefed up security and erected barricades. In pouring rain, hundreds of people sat banging pots and plastic containers and cheered the speakers. Benny Tai, one of the organizers of Occupy Central, said, "Hong Kong is now entering a new era—a new era of resistance."

Several in the crowd said they weren't surprised by the decision. "I knew it wasn't possible for Beijing to grant Hong Kong democracy, but I still have to fight," said 80-year-old Ng Hung. "I am here for the next generation."

The Standing Committee of the National People's Congress, China's largely ceremonial parliament, said future chief-executive candidates will be nominated by a "broadly representative" committee.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/beijing-say ... ?mg=id-wsj

And then there's this:

Prior to the transfer of sovereignty over Hong Kong in 1997, Hong Kong boasted one of the highest degrees of press freedom in Asia.[1] Since the handover to mainland China, Hong Kong has been granted relative legal, economic, and political autonomy under the one country, two systems policy. In contrast to the rest of China, where control over media is pervasive, Hong Kong's freedom of speech, of the press, and of publication are protected under Article 27 of the Hong Kong Basic Law[2] and Article 16 of the Hong Kong Bill of Rights.[3]

Observers have noted a trend of increasing threats to press freedom in the territory, including physical attacks on journalists, acts targeted at liberal media and against their owners, withdrawal of advertising revenues, and appointment of compliant pro-Beijing chief editors.[4] The decline in Hong Kong's ranking on the Press Freedom Index published annually by Reporters Without Borders has been vertiginous: it stood at 70th in 2015, having lost nine places compared to 2014; it ranked 18th place in 2002.[5][6][7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Hong_Kong

And this:

A Chilling Effect As Hong Kong's Missing Bookseller Cases Go Unresolved

Five Hong Kong booksellers disappeared and later turned up in police custody on mainland China, and nearly two months later, Chinese authorities have yet to explain how they got there.

Foreign governments and the United Nations have expressed concern about the disappearances. The British government went so far as to assert that one bookseller had been "involuntarily removed" — basically kidnapped — from Hong Kong.

In Hong Kong, the chilling effect of the disappearance cases has been most clearly felt in the publishing industry, which normally enjoys freedom of the press not found on the mainland.

Some publishers and authors have lost confidence in Hong Kong's autonomy and left the territory. Others, like Bao Pu, the founder of the New Century Press, had little confidence to lose.

"I didn't have the faith that the Hong Kong government or Hong Kong police would protect me," Bao says. "So I knew the risk and, as far as the risk is concerned, that hasn't changed."

http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2 ... unresolved

And just yesterday:

Chinese Official Condemns Calls for Greater Autonomy in Hong Kong

HONG KONG — A senior Chinese official closed his three-day visit to Hong Kong on Thursday with a strong statement against local calls for greater autonomy and even independence from China, a movement that has persisted amid fears that the city’s liberties are eroding.

“If we forgo ‘one country, two systems’ and the Basic Law, Hong Kong would undoubtedly rot,” the official, Zhang Dejiang, a member of China’s ruling Politburo Standing Committee, said in a speech before returning to Beijing. “Any advocacy for self-determination, Hong Kong independence and the like will not succeed.”

The Basic Law is Hong Kong’s mini-constitution, and “one country, two systems” is the arrangement under which the city is guaranteed a high degree of autonomy and civil liberties unknown in mainland China. Hong Kong’s special status expires in 2047, the 50th anniversary of the former British colony’s return to Chinese sovereignty.

Hong Kong officials imposed tight security for Mr. Zhang’s visit, fearing action by the city’s many young pro-democracy demonstrators. Wherever Mr. Zhang went, whole areas were barricaded, and traffic was paralyzed. Protest banners were swiftly taken down, even one hung on a hillside far from where Mr. Zhang was to appear.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/20/world ... jiang.html

Now, I don't want to be unduly critical...

So in all fairness, aside from the fact that Hong Kong isn't a nation, and the fact that it isn't free, calling it the "freest nation" makes perfect sense...