A Trump-Sanders Debate...

Right? Left? Centre?
Political news and debate.
Put your views and articles up for debate and destruction!
User avatar
Crackpot
Posts: 11660
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:59 am
Location: Michigan

Re: A Trump-Sanders Debate...

Post by Crackpot »

Big RR wrote:Well, when I use the word "ass", I am including in it a large dose of stupidity. You seem to think that he has developed this persona (or possibly used the persona he has) to his advantage; nothing I have ever read or heard about him leads me to that conclusion. He spouts off and people tolerate him I have never heard anything from those who worked or negotiated with him indicating he was particularly good or effective at negotiation or getting people to do what he wants. His only luck is that his money buys him some good people working around him who can sidestep his idiocy and get things done. But if this were the Godfather, he'd be more the Fredo brother than Sonny or Michael.

Are you missing the fact that despite his record for losing money people keep giving him more?
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

Big RR
Posts: 14911
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:47 pm

Re: A Trump-Sanders Debate...

Post by Big RR »

Like I say, I think he does have some good people working for him, and because of his name and money, doors will sometimes be opened that would otherwise be closed, but I just see none of this as his doing. I could be wrong, but I seriously doubt I am.

rubato
Posts: 14245
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 10:14 pm

Re: A Trump-Sanders Debate...

Post by rubato »

Crackpot wrote:
Big RR wrote:Well, when I use the word "ass", I am including in it a large dose of stupidity. You seem to think that he has developed this persona (or possibly used the persona he has) to his advantage; nothing I have ever read or heard about him leads me to that conclusion. He spouts off and people tolerate him I have never heard anything from those who worked or negotiated with him indicating he was particularly good or effective at negotiation or getting people to do what he wants. His only luck is that his money buys him some good people working around him who can sidestep his idiocy and get things done. But if this were the Godfather, he'd be more the Fredo brother than Sonny or Michael.

Are you missing the fact that despite his record for losing money people keep giving him more?

James Randi proved that a faith healer (Peter Popoff) was engaging in deliberate fraud. A few years later he was back in business with full auditoriums.



yrs,
rubato

User avatar
Lord Jim
Posts: 29716
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:44 pm
Location: TCTUTKHBDTMDITSAF

Re: A Trump-Sanders Debate...

Post by Lord Jim »

Trump pussies out:
Trump says he will not debate Sanders

Washington (CNN)Donald Trump on Friday said he would not debate Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders because it would be "inappropriate" to square off against the candidate who currently trails Hillary Clinton in the Democratic primary fight.

"Based on the fact that the Democratic nominating process is totally rigged and Crooked Hillary Clinton and (Debbie) Wasserman-Schultz will not allow Bernie Sanders to win, and now that I am the presumptive Republican nominee, it seems inappropriate that I would debate the second-place finisher," Trump said in a statement.

Trump also said news networks "are not proving to be too generous to charitable causes," which he previously had said would be a goal of debating Sanders.
The two populist candidates had floated the idea of debating each other throughout the week. Sanders has been trying to debate Clinton ahead of the California primary on June 7, but she, too, declined.

Speaking to reporters in Los Angeles, Sanders said he was disappointed that Trump changed his mind.
"I hope that he changes his mind again. Mr. Trump is known to change his mind many times in a day," Sanders said. "Trump is a bully, he's a big tough guy. Well, I say to Mr. Trump, what are you afraid of?"

Trump's announcement on Friday is a far cry from a statement he made the day before, when he told supporters in Bismark, North Dakota, that he'd "love to debate Bernie."

"He's a dream," the real estate magnate said. "If we can raise for maybe women's health issues or something. If we can raise $10 or $15 million for charity, which would be a very appropriate amount."

"I understand the television business very well. I think it would get high ratings," Trump added.
The idea of the two debating surfaced on Wednesday night, when ABC's Jimmy Kimmel told Trump he had a question from Sanders' campaign, asking if Trump would be willing to debate the Democratic hopeful.
Trump joked, "How much is he going to pay me?"

"That could happen, I've been saying that should happen anyway," he added. "If he paid a nice sum for charity, I would love to do that."

Minutes later, Sanders responded on Twitter.

"Game on," Sanders wrote. "I look forward to debating Donald Trump in California before the June 7 primary."
Later in the day, Sanders' campaign manager Jeff Weaver told CNN's Wolf Blitzer that he hoped Trump doesn't "chicken out" after the two talked about the possibility of a one-on-one debate.

The two candidates reiterated their support for a debate throughout Thursday.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/27/politics/ ... e-sanders/

All week long, Trump has been insisting that he seriously wanted to do this, and all week long "sources" in his campaign (probably Manefort) have been insisting that he was just joking...

Looks like the advisers finally prevailed on Trump...

And technically they're right; it's not appropriate for the presumptive nominee of one party to be debating the second place finisher in the other...

But when has "appropriateness" ever been any kind of a guide for Trump? Saying and doing inappropriate things is the centerpiece of his campaign.

I think he definitely would have had something to gain from doing this, and I agree with CP that he would have gone easy on Bernie for both tactical and strategic reasons:

Tactically, it's obviously to Trump's advantage to help Sanders make life as miserable for Hillary as possible, have him hang in all the way through the convention, and make it difficult for her to unite the party. Giving Sanders this kind of platform to help push him over the top in the California primary would definitely help serve that end.

And strategically, Trump also wants to be able to attract a chunk of Sanders voters in the fall, so that would also mean it would have made sense to go easy on him...

He would have echoed criticisms Sanders has made against Clinton, ("not qualified" "too close to Wall Street" "bad judgement" etc....he does this regularly at his rallies) and joined Sanders in a bashfest against the absent Hillary...

And he also would have emphasized areas where he and Sanders have a lot of agreement. For example, the one and only positive theme Trump has emphasized in his campaign is the need to do better for veterans; this is an area of particular interest to Sanders as well, who served as Chairman of the Veterans Affairs Committee in the Senate...

They are also both pro-protectionist, "anti-establishment outsiders" and like to talk about how "the system is rigged" and politicians are bought...

And they are both far more dovish on national defense and security than Clinton...(for different reasons)

If there had been a debate you can bet your boots that Trump would have been pointing all this out to make a play for Sanders supporters who would have been in the TV audience.

The loser from this debate would have been Hillary Clinton.

I saw a lot of pundits this week saying they didn't think Trump would have any to gain from this, but I strongly disagree. I think this would definitely have been beneficial for him, so I'm perfectly happy to not see it happen.
ImageImageImage

User avatar
Long Run
Posts: 6723
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:47 pm

Re: A Trump-Sanders Debate...

Post by Long Run »

Lord Jim wrote:
I saw a lot of pundits this week saying they didn't think Trump would have any to gain from this, but I strongly disagree. I think this would definitely have been beneficial for him, so I'm perfectly happy to not see it happen.
He definitely goes by maxim that any press is good press . . . and so far he has been right. He's breaking all of the rules, not sure why he wouldn't go ahead with this.

User avatar
Scooter
Posts: 17271
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:04 pm
Location: Toronto, ON

Re: A Trump-Sanders Debate...

Post by Scooter »

Probably because those around him know that he would never be able to contain his urge to get vicious and personal, that there are limits to what people will accept, even from him, and that attacking Bernie Sanders the way he has attacked other candidates will play as well as if he were to attack Grandpa Walton.
"Hang on while I log in to the James Webb telescope to search the known universe for who the fuck asked you." -- James Fell

User avatar
MajGenl.Meade
Posts: 21467
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Groot Brakrivier
Contact:

Re: A Trump-Sanders Debate...

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

It'd be the unelectable debating the unspeakable.
Last edited by MajGenl.Meade on Sat May 28, 2016 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

User avatar
Bicycle Bill
Posts: 9796
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:10 pm
Location: Living in a suburb of Berkeley on the Prairie along with my Yellow Rose of Texas

Re: A Trump-Sanders Debate...

Post by Bicycle Bill »

I just saw yesterday where Drumpf is telling Californians that "there is no drought", and is blamed California's water woes on the "mismanagement of water supply" by state officials and environmental interests to the detriment of farmers, golf course managers, swimming pool owners, water park operators, and other water-wasters throughout the state.  He claims that he will "open up the water" if elected, and endangered species and other environmental concerns can just fend for themselves.

It will be interesting to see where he's going to get more water once he finishes draining reservoirs like Lake Mead.

He also claimed that the judge overseeing the lawsuit against his scam operation formerly known as 'Trump University' was "a Mexican" (although born in the United States, his name is Gonzalo Curiel) and that the judge was "a hater of Donald Trump".  Maybe he is, maybe he isn't; but if he is a hater of Donald Trump, he is just one of a very large group of people.

And now he declines to debate Bernie Sanders because "the process is rigged" and since Sanders doesn't have a chance to be anything other than the second-place finisher in the other party's nomination process he dismisses him, instead of using it as an opportunity to provide some more information as to how he intends to "Make America Great Again".  But of course, that would require him to actually *HAVE* some sort of a plan to "Make America Great Again", wouldn't it?
Image
-"BB"-
Yes, I suppose I could agree with you ... but then we'd both be wrong, wouldn't we?

User avatar
BoSoxGal
Posts: 20053
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:36 pm
Location: The Heart of Red Sox Nation

Re: A Trump-Sanders Debate...

Post by BoSoxGal »

My cousin just hooked up my tv so I can watch Roots this week; saw a few minutes of CNN talking to Trump's communications director being asked why Trump said there was no drought - her attempts to save face were painfully hilarious.

Trump won't debate Sanders because Sanders would make mincemeat of him and show him up as an utter fool - Sanders actually knows actual real facts and has a real policy platform. Trump's got nuthin'. :roll:
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

User avatar
Long Run
Posts: 6723
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:47 pm

Re: A Trump-Sanders Debate...

Post by Long Run »

There is a large chunk on the left that questions Bernie's honesty: http://www.politicususa.com/2016/05/28/ ... onest.html
WaPo’s Editorial Board Gets It – Time For Sanders To Start Being Honest

By Rmuse on Sat, May 28th, 2016 at 2:56 pm

He is selling his own brand of fiction to a slice of the country that wants to buy it. It proves that many progressives like being told what they want to hear

User avatar
Lord Jim
Posts: 29716
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:44 pm
Location: TCTUTKHBDTMDITSAF

Re: A Trump-Sanders Debate...

Post by Lord Jim »

progressives like being told what they want to hear
Well, excuse me while I keel over in a state of absolute shock... 8-)
ImageImageImage

User avatar
Bicycle Bill
Posts: 9796
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:10 pm
Location: Living in a suburb of Berkeley on the Prairie along with my Yellow Rose of Texas

Re: A Trump-Sanders Debate...

Post by Bicycle Bill »

progressives like being told what they want to hear
And this is different from the right-wing conservatives and Tea Baggers that Trump is playing to exactly how?
Image
-"BB"-
Yes, I suppose I could agree with you ... but then we'd both be wrong, wouldn't we?

User avatar
Joe Guy
Posts: 15392
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:40 pm
Location: Redweird City, California

Re: A Trump-Sanders Debate...

Post by Joe Guy »

Bicycle Bill wrote:
progressives like being told what they want to hear
And this is different from the right-wing conservatives and Tea Baggers that Trump is playing to exactly how?
So, I guess that means that conservatives and Trump Bags like to be told what they don't want to hear...

User avatar
Lord Jim
Posts: 29716
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:44 pm
Location: TCTUTKHBDTMDITSAF

Re: A Trump-Sanders Debate...

Post by Lord Jim »

Trump won't debate Sanders because Sanders would make mincemeat of him and show him up as an utter fool - Sanders actually knows actual real facts and has a real policy platform.
The fact of the matter is that Bernie Sanders is also a demagogic know-nothing who appeals to anger, resentment and fear...much like Trump...

He's more likeable personally, but there's really not much difference overall...

When he was asked to come up with an explanation for how he would go about "breaking up the big banks" he couldn't come up with an answer...

A central part of his platform, and he hadn't even thought it through enough to give a minimally knowledgeable answer...

Trump seeks to marshal the forces of anger, resentment and fear based on nativist xenophobia...

Sanders seeks to appeal to the same toxic impulses based on economics...

Trump wants you to hate and fear anyone who isn't like you ethnically or culturally...

Sanders wants you to hate and fear anyone who has more money than you...

Not seeing a whole lotta difference there...

Different target set, same concept...
ImageImageImage

User avatar
Crackpot
Posts: 11660
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:59 am
Location: Michigan

Re: A Trump-Sanders Debate...

Post by Crackpot »

Sanders is not a Demagogue He's an Ideologue. There is a difference.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

User avatar
Guinevere
Posts: 8990
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:01 pm

Re: A Trump-Sanders Debate...

Post by Guinevere »

Crackpot wrote:Sanders is not a Demagogue He's an Ideologue. There is a difference.

Exactly. And he knows quite a lot. His ideas won't become policy yet, because that isn't how we do things in this country, but we need people with ideas and passion for them.


No building a wall is not an idea....
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

User avatar
Guinevere
Posts: 8990
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:01 pm

Re: A Trump-Sanders Debate...

Post by Guinevere »

Lord Jim wrote:
Trump won't debate Sanders because Sanders would make mincemeat of him and show him up as an utter fool - Sanders actually knows actual real facts and has a real policy platform.
The fact of the matter is that Bernie Sanders is also a demagogic know-nothing who appeals to anger, resentment and fear...much like Trump...

He's more likeable personally, but there's really not much difference overall...

When he was asked to come up with an explanation for how he would go about "breaking up the big banks" he couldn't come up with an answer...

A central part of his platform, and he hadn't even thought it through enough to give a minimally knowledgeable answer...

Trump seeks to marshal the forces of anger, resentment and fear based on nativist xenophobia...

Sanders seeks to appeal to the same toxic impulses based on economics...

Trump wants you to hate and fear anyone who isn't like you ethnically or culturally...

Sanders wants you to hate and fear anyone who has more money than you...

Not seeing a whole lotta difference there...

Different target set, same concept...
Bernie has morals and values. He isn't pandering to fear, and the lowest common denominator -- he sees an actual problem and isn't afraid to stand up and talk about it. Huge difference.

That his message resonates with Millennials and the generation where everyone got a trophy doesn't mean his ideas are invalid. And as I said above, I think there will be incremental change towards his view of the world.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

User avatar
Lord Jim
Posts: 29716
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:44 pm
Location: TCTUTKHBDTMDITSAF

Re: A Trump-Sanders Debate...

Post by Lord Jim »

he knows quite a lot.
I haven't seen any evidence of that...
He isn't pandering to fear
Sure looks to me like he is...
dem·a·gogue
ˈdeməˌɡäɡ/
noun
noun: demagogue; plural noun: demagogues

a political leader who seeks support by appealing to popular desires and prejudices rather than by using rational argument.
Looks to me like that fits Sanders to a tee...

I think you don't agree with me because you happen to agree with the "popular desires and prejudice" he's appealing to...

And how is a "plan" that increases the national debt by 18 trillion dollars over the next 10 years, (a conservative estimate really, when one considers the massive recession his tax, trade and spending policies would bring, and the negative effect that would have have on government revenues) any more "rational" than "We'll get Mexico to pay for the wall by threatening to destroy their economy"...

He's not as mean, vicious or nasty as Trump, but Sanders Claus lives in every bit as much an unrealistic fantasy world from a policy point of view as Mr. Drumpf...

ETA:

Let me try to make clear what I'm saying and not saying in this comparison...

Donald Trump is evil. He is an utterly amoral character who believes in absolutely nothing except his own self aggrandizement, and he doesn't give a flying fuck about the best interests of the country.

Every President we have had that I have any knowledge about, (and that would be most of them) despite their egos and in many cases willingness to play dirty, have shared one thing in common....

On the large and important issues, they have all sincerely believed that the policies they were seeking to pursue were in the best interests of the country...I would say this even of Presidents I'm not particularly fond of like the current incumbent and even Jimmy Carter...(whether their judgement about what was in the best interest of the country was correct is of course an entirely different matter...but I don't question that they themselves believed that it was)

I can not say the same thing of Donald Trump. I don't believe he cares one small damn about the best interests of the country; he'd be perfectly happy to see the nation go down the shit hole so long as he saw his own personal power, wealth and influence increased...

I certainly do not believe that of Sanders. He sincerely believes the crap he's selling; Trump doesn't believe in anything other than that he should be more powerful, wealthier, and more important...

Trump is a venal, purely self-interested agent...Sanders is an ideologically driven self-righteous fanatic...

But both employ the methods of demagogues...
ImageImageImage

User avatar
Scooter
Posts: 17271
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:04 pm
Location: Toronto, ON

Re: A Trump-Sanders Debate...

Post by Scooter »

Image
"Hang on while I log in to the James Webb telescope to search the known universe for who the fuck asked you." -- James Fell

User avatar
Econoline
Posts: 9607
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:25 pm
Location: DeKalb, Illinois...out amidst the corn, soybeans, and Republicans

Re: A Trump-Sanders Debate...

Post by Econoline »

:funee: :lol: :lol: :lol:
People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
God @The Tweet of God

Post Reply