Had any good crashes lately?

[Burning Petard]

Twice I have totaled the car I was driving. Both times it was my fault and could be attributed to 'lack of situational awareness'. Both times there were no personal injuries. When I was in the US Army in the sixties, I was a clerk and filled out alot of vehicle accident reports. There was an official policy that 'all accidents are avoidable.' ALL, period, no exceptions. Even if you are rear-ended by the car behind you who was pushed into you by the car behind him that did not stop. You should have been watching in your mirror and noticed that the car back there was going too fast and you were tail-gated. You should have moved over before the contact happened. ALL are preventable.

That was a tough philosophy to live with and local command treated it very gently.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/23/scien ... pe=article

An article from the NY Times today says we should simply stop describing auto accidents. They are not accidental. Call 'em crashes.

The article quotes a dictionary meaning of 'accident' as an unexpected happening that is not due to any fault or misconduct on the part of the person injured. That is the problem. That kind of 'auto accident' is culturally typical, but in reality very rare. I have long argued that nobody every 'lost control' of their car. They did not lose it, they threw it away, probably due to bad training and giving up too quickly. The cases recently of GM ignition switches turning off 'accidentally' are good examples. In the immediate event, it may truly be no fault or misconduct on the part of the driver. BUT. The driver should know how to steer and brake without power assist. Sure it's hard. So? If you can't control the vehicle in emergency conditions, don't get behind the wheel.

IMNSHO, adopting 'crash' as the descriptor is a much needed cultural change.

snailgate

[MajGenl.Meade]

One person's accident is another person's crash. I was at a red light - nowhere to go - when an idiot fiddling with his radio crashed into my beautiful Maxima. I reported the accident (that I was not at fault in that my car was unexpectedly rear-ended). The other bloke reported he'd crashed into my car. But in the end, he never intended it, so even from his side it is an "at-fault" accident. (Ohio is an "at-fault" state with the liability 100% resting with the clown).

"All accidents are avoidable" is nonsense if that is meant to include blaming me sitting at the red light with nowhere to go and approximately 1.5 seconds between seeing the clown barreling at me and the crash. "All accidents are avoidable" makes some sense in terms of the at-fault party - who is always in the wrong.

[Burning Petard]

Sitting at a red light. No where to go. Really? Was there a brick wall in front of you? No shoulder or sidewalk to your right? Just how much cross traffic was present? You did not give us enough data. You chose to sit there and take the hit. It may or may not have been the best cost-effective choice. We don't know. You said you had a second and a half to process the data and act. YOU choose to sit there and take it.

Have you never been exposed to the Smith System of Driving(c)? Always leave yourself an out.

But if you are entirely correct, the event in its totality was not an accident. You were the victim of another driver's bad choices. Intent is not the issue.

snailgate

[MajGenl.Meade]

The article quotes a dictionary meaning of 'accident' as an unexpected happening that is not due to any fault or misconduct on the part of the person injured. That is the problem. That kind of 'auto accident' is culturally typical, but in reality very rare.

Say what you like. That's the meaning of "accident" - not due to any fault or misconduct on the part of the person injured. It is also not at all rare but quite common. Rear end collisions are almost never avoidable by the driver of the stationary vehicle - most of those are in traffic where there is nowhere for the stationary vehicle to go. As to my own red light accident, in 1.5 seconds I certainly was not going to take off forwards into the cross traffic - even if there had been time to react (I said "Shit!" and threw my arm across in front of my wife). If I'd done that, I'd have been at fault for hitting some innocent person driving across the intersection on green - see how that works?

My car was totaled - not my fault. I've not had any other on-road accident. Or crash.

"The person injured" does not include the clown who caused the event - "injured" here does not mean anyone who got hurt but specifically one (or more) "damaged by another person's action". It is the not-at-fault person who is "injured" (that is, offended against).

"Having a crash" can include purposeful action. Insurance companies don't like that idea - they cover accidents, not purposeful actions. So if I purposely drove my car into another vehicle (road rage perhaps), my insurance company would compensate the injured party but leave me to dangle in the breeze. If it was merely bad driving on my part, then they compensate the injured party AND they'll fix my car, charging me for an "at-fault accident" which will haunt me by increased premiums, for years.

Therefore, if I am the injured party, I will not say that "I had a crash" - although I will say "this clown crashed into my car". And in my years as the kindly insurance guy, I can assure you that everyone who reported a car accident to me did use the word "crash", even the at-fault clients said "I crashed into..."

Insurance companies do not cover "crashes" - they cover "accidents". Not all accidents are crashes.

[Burning Petard]

Did you read the linked article? I guess there is no automobile insurance in Nevada since the first of this year. Interesting. Gen'l Meade. You state your action was based on legal liability, not any effort to reduce your own physical or monetary damage (I guess that is the Insurance companies problem---that is what you bought coverage for, so you could choose to do nothing.)

Snail gate

[Jarlaxle]

I was hit a while back...stopped with the signal on to turn left, a woman put a Honda Accord right into the stinger of my wrecker. Short of moving into oncoming traffic, not a damn thing I could do!

[MajGenl.Meade]

Did you read the linked article? I guess there is no automobile insurance in Nevada since the first of this year. Interesting. Gen'l Meade. You state your action was based on legal liability, not any effort to reduce your own physical or monetary damage (I guess that is the Insurance companies problem---that is what you bought coverage for, so you could choose to do nothing.)

Snail gate

Yes I did. Ha ha - irony re Nevada! My "action" was based on glancing up at the rear view mirror, saying "shit" and moving my right arm - all in 1.5 seconds. I did not "choose" to do "nothing". Jarl knows.

For that matter, when at a red light I have no obligation to even look in rear view mirrors. Fortunately I was taught back in the 60s to constantly check what's behind. My driving instructor would put his hand up over the mirror and ask me what was the color of the vehicle following.

You suggest my responsibility was to tromp on the accelerator and zoom into cross traffic. In this way, the person who was driving dangerously may have stopped before hitting my car (doubt it) and therefore he, fully responsible and wrong, would be whole. But I would be striking vehicles legally proceeding across an intersection having the green light. Your proposal is preposterous. If I'd had time to do it, I still wouldn't do it because I'm not going to be the cause of crash and injury to others - see, I wouldn't want to be a bad driver like that and increase my own and others monetary damage and possible physical injury.

If the at-fault driver hadn't had liability coverage, my own "Collision" (not "Accident") coverage would have kicked in. My insurance company would give me a write-off check and then subrogate against anyone who seemed likely to be liable. That's what insurance is for - mutual protection provided by the premiums of all members to the benefit of those who are involved in accidents. Or collisions. Or crashes.

I like "collision" as a term.

[Bicycle Bill]

Yes I did. Ha ha - irony re Nevada! My "action" was based on glancing up at the rear view mirror, saying "shit" and moving my right arm - all in 1.5 seconds. I did not "choose" to do "nothing". Jarl knows.

For that matter, when at a red light I have no obligation to even look in rear view mirrors. Fortunately I was taught back in the 60s to constantly check what's behind. My driving instructor would put his hand up over the mirror and ask me what was the color of the vehicle following.

You suggest my responsibility was to tromp on the accelerator and zoom into cross traffic. In this way, the person who was driving dangerously may have stopped before hitting my car (doubt it) and therefore he, fully responsible and wrong, would be whole. But I would be striking vehicles legally proceeding across an intersection having the green light. Your proposal is preposterous. If I'd had time to do it, I still wouldn't do it because I'm not going to be the cause of crash and injury to others - see, I wouldn't want to be a bad driver like that and increase my own and others monetary damage and possible physical injury.

If the at-fault driver hadn't had liability coverage, my own "Collision" (not "Accident") coverage would have kicked in. My insurance company would give me a write-off check and then subrogate against anyone who seemed likely to be liable. That's what insurance is for - mutual protection provided by the premiums of all members to the benefit of those who are involved in accidents. Or collisions. Or crashes.

I like "collision" as a term.

What Meade has written here.  Sometimes you are in the proverbial wrong place at the wrong time, just like the 56 passengers who were on board Egyptair Flight 804 or the poor bastards who boarded the four flights or went to work at the WTC on the morning on 9/11, and there isn't a single solitary dambed thing you can do about it.

-"BB"-

[oldr_n_wsr]

I got "rear ended" twice on the Long Island Expressway.
First time the traffic had stopped completely, and very abruptly. I was stopped in the left lane for a good 5 seconds before I looked in my mirror to see this guy flying towards me. No where to go as the HOV lane to the left had cars moving along in it and the middle lane to the right of me had stopped traffic also. BOOM, hit me, sent my car into the car in front of me, that car into the car in front, five cars total involved. The I bent the headrest and the steering wheel as I had braced myself because I saw it coming. Car was totalled. I got paltry $2000 from the car owners insurance who was not the driver of the car. The driver was unlicensed. The insurance only had $10,000 in property damage coverage so we each got a piece of it. Tried to sue for more (book value on my car at the time was $7000) and lost the case. Go figure.

Second time I was rear ended was similar except I only tapped the guy in front of me, I had stopped with about 2 car lengths between us. This time my car got fixed (about $3000 worth of damage).

Then there was the time I got hit while riding my motorcycle. That was two years ago this June. Set me off on a relapse. Th guy made a left hand turn into me. He was drunk and I was leaving an AA meeting. Go figure.

He left the scene and a couple of my AA buddies chased him down and he was arrested. I went to the hospital. No real physical damage. Mentally though.

[Burning Petard]

For Jarlaxle and Gen'l Mead. Crash, collision, accident avoidance does not happen in that 1.5 seconds. Jarl, are you aware of the UPS computer routing process that has reduced their actual travel time and includes no left turns? Accident avoidance includes checking the tire inflation once in a while and noticing how much play there is in the movement of the steering wheel before the car actually changes direction as well as lots of other things long before you see something undesirable headed in your direction. It includes the consideration of local driving patterns that led my former employer to issue a policy statement that employees visiting in the Boston area were not to rent cars because the local driver conventions were complex enough that the cost of a taxi everywhere was cheaper than the total potential cost of renting a car for those who were not familiar with traffic in Boston.

Gen'l, your first post above included no information about the width of the road or even your lane, no information about cross traffic, or other vehicles on either side of you or stopped in front of you. You say you have no duty to look at your rear view mirrors while stopped at a red light. Does your local traffic code permit motorcycles to 'split the lane'? That is permitted in some localities. Instead of shooting straight ahead into possible traffic, it is conceivable that you could have shifted right or left out of the path of that vehicle behind you, without crossing into the path of cross traffic. Many white 'stopping' lines are well before a pedestrian crossing marked path and more than a car length before the cross traffic lane. But most of all, more situational awareness on your part would have let you be aware of what traffic on all sides, including behind you, was doing and you could have been doing mental advance planning--if this develops I will do this; but you describe no consideration of any of this until you saw a flash of movement behind you and got out one arm and an expletive

This is not about legal duty or who is at fault. It is about the thinking that is behind those two words. I am asking for a cultural change that says preventing is at least as important as remediation or compensation after the event.

And as it says up at the top, it is about arguing and having fun.

snailgate

[datsunaholic]

The only way to avoid any auto-related accidents is to bury yourself in a bunker on a planet that doesn't have cars, and you're still probably going to get hit by one.

The last big wreck I was in I was in stop and go traffic which was the worst kind- stop, speedup to 60 for a quarter mile, then stop, repeat. I'd left a HUGE gap in front of me because I don't trust the guy behind me. So traffic speeds up and stops again and I left 10 car lengths to the car in front of me, made sure the guy behind me was gonna stop (so I could try to accelerate or even jump into the mostly-vacant carpool lane if I had to). I see him stop, so I start rolling forward to close the gap, hear a screech, and suddenly from the corner of my mirror I see an SUV come from the carpool lane sideways and into the back of my car.

The woman driving the SUV had for some reason hit the jersey barrier next to the carpool lane and had bounced off, went sideways and slammed into the back of my car with her driver's side doors, which did a trick pool shot and spun my car into the carpool lane and head-on into the jersey barrier. I didn't hit any other cars. She continued on and T-boned a car in the lane to my right. The driver that had been behind me before this happened was rear-ended by the guy behind him, either causing the SUV driver's panic or after the SUV hit me, no one ever got that sorted out.

This could have gotten tragic quickly. Remember, the carpool lane was pretty much wide open, so even though the general-purpose lanes were crawling stop-and-go the carpool lane was still doing 60-70MPH next to stopped cars. And now my completely demolished car (the rear bodywork was crushed into the rear tires and my car was now passenger-side-nose into the jersey barrier at a 45 degree angle) was sitting with the driver's door facing into oncoming traffic. The car wouldn't move (engine had stalled on impact) and the doors had become jammed from body compression. That was the most scared I've ever been in my life. Fortunately a DOT truck had been right behind the wreck and moved over and blocked the carpool lane (there is no shoulder between the carpool lane and jersey barrier).





My first big accident was a simple T-bone. The intersection in question is a 2-lane E-W road that I was on with a 30MPH speed limit with a steep hill on one side that I had just crested, and headed down to cross a major N-S arterial with 4 lanes plus a left turn pocket in the middle. When I crested the hill and headed down to the intersection my light was green, and the crosswalk signals were illuminated with "Walk". 200 feet before the intersection the crosswalk started blinking "Don't walk". Now, at this point you still can't see cross traffic because there are houses on 3 corners with bulkheads 5-8 feet tall as the intersection was cut into the terrain. As soon as I hit the intersection I saw a car headed south that wasn't going to stop. The driver was looking at the light 2 blocks down. I had enough time to realize the car was red before the impact and the world started spinning. I ended up 150 feet past the intersection, in the EASTBOUND lane, up against the curb, with my hubcaps rolling another half block. Her car was stopped still in the intersection. I then looked up to see the E-W light turn yellow. My light didn't even turn red until AFTER I'd stopped. My Mom was in the car with me, too. and she took the passenger door to the arm since that's where the other car hit. But because I was 16 and both me and the other driver (who had no insurance) claimed we had the green light the cops declared "Unable to determine". Note the other driver actually came over and asked ME who had the green (before the cops arrived) and broke into tears when I said I had the green. Plus I had a witness, but being my Mom it didn't matter.

[MajGenl.Meade]

I was first in line at the light. Single lane. Behind me, the road came over a bridge. I couldn't see traffic approaching from behind until they crested the bridge - about 15 yards back. The guy setting his radio couldn't see ahead over the "hump" of the bridge until he was only those few yards away. He was doing about 30mph. He evidently didn't see the traffic light warning signs when he drove onto the bridge. Cross traffic was two car lengths from me - he pushed me almost that distance but (obviously) I'd really pushed on the brake in the split seconds I had. No desire to go three car lengths forward.

Argue. Agree. Crash avoidance doesn't happen in that 1.5 seconds. Even at age 35, I'd never have got brake off, throttle down, and moved forward far enough to avoid being hit by a car traveling at 30mph from the back. I did what was best - brace and scream. So far I've resisted suggesting what you should have done to avoid causing two crashes - I bet you had time and choice had you exercised it. I didn't. Next time I'll let you drive and you can get out of the way of the ass who hit my beloved Maxima (actually he was a youngster and was very concerned and contrite - that's how I know he was adjusting the radio. He said too much: "It's all my fault" etc. Nice kid. Good insurance. I got two (used) cars out of it - another Maxima and a 300ZX 2+2.

[Jarlaxle]

8

[Burning Petard]

So how did that work out for you? Just how long DID that dude have to wait for his tow?

Snail gate

[Jarlaxle]

,

[Burning Petard]

Good on you. Around here, it would have taken longer than that just for the police to get on the scene.

[oldr_n_wsr]

No injuries = no rush