Largest mass shooting in American history

[liberty]

The first two clauses set the stage and the last clause states the right. Just because a state government chooses not use civilian volunteer does not cause that right to disappear. Only a constitutional amendment can change the constitution as you all know.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Why not compromise? Instead of controlling guns control who can own guns; that would not be unconstitutional and would be something that NRA members would support. And then make laws that ensure that only authorized individual possess guns. A group that should not have guns are gang bangers; they can not be depended on to defend the country or to obey laws.

[kmccune]

Seems to me like they try to do that anyway,I could probably get my right to vote and jury duty back ,but not the right to own a gun and of all my forfeited rights the right to own a gun is the only one I care about(the right to be on a jury-pure bullshit ) The la policia need never ask anything of me again .

[Econoline]

[MajGenl.Meade]

Why not compromise? Instead of controlling guns control who can own guns; that would not be unconstitutional and would be something that NRA members would support. A group that should not have guns are gang bangers; they can not be depended on to defend the country or to obey laws.

Oh, lib. There you go again.

Secondly, you just can't resist bringing race into it, can you? "Gang bangers" - we all know that you have just put the emphasis on certain black people because that's what the codeword "gang bangers" means.

Firstly, "instead of controlling guns, control who can own guns . . . that would not be unconstitutional and would be something that NRA members would support". What kind of fantasy world do you live in? (a) all efforts so far to "control guns" are exactly ways and means to control who owns guns. And the NRA primary position is to resist efforts to control who owns guns. They would argue (b) that controlling who can own guns is precisely a violation of the words "the right . . . shall NOT be infringed".

You know what 'infringed' means, right? Even a ban on machine guns is, in actuality, a ban on who can own machine guns. Joe Citizen cannot; the National Guard can.

Possibly the most successful ban (other than the machine gun) is on the size of magazines. I would heartily support a new restriction on magazines (which is not an "arm" but an "accoutrement") and let's legislate that each one must be about 15 inches long, weigh 15lbs and only hold three rounds.

Aside from enjoying the penis-enhancing thrill of blasting off a gazillion rounds in 10 seconds, there is no useful role in civil society for semi-automatic weapons. No one should be able to purchase them. Let 'em bear arms - but not those arms.

The counter-argument of course is that we needs em wapons in case the gubmints gets uppity. Or when em aliens land - like roosians, islams and em refuges.

[Burning Petard]

""Aside from enjoying the penis-enhancing thrill of blasting off a gazillion rounds in 10 seconds, there is no useful role in civil society for semi-automatic weapons. No one should be able to purchase them. Let 'em bear arms - but not those arms."

I guess America has not been a civil society for generations, because most .22 rimfire rifles sold even 60 years ago, long before the AK47 or M16 or even the M14, were semi auto. I guess Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska were not part of civil society because 20 years ago in those states, the AK47 was the device of choice for shooting coyotes and jack rabbits as farm/ranch pests. The rifle and ammo were cheap and could bounce around in the back of a farm pickup and still work just fine.

The Brits were very slow, behind nearly every other state in adopting a semi-auto as the issue weapon for most infantry men. Their military doctrine held that a trained British infantry man could deliver more bullets on a target in a short time with a bolt action rifle (the SMLE) by working the bolt with thumb and forefinger and the trigger with the middle finger. That changed with the Viet Nam experience with lesser skilled infantry using a 'pray and spray' technique and ammo that was smaller and thus the infantryman could carry more rounds with the same total weight.

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[BoSoxGal]

I call bullshit; however 'cheap', (??? $500-$600?) farmers and ranchers that I've known don't own or use ak47s for pest management, that's just absurd.

You'll have to provide verifiable citations to that 'fact' before I'll entertain it.

[Big RR]

I call bullshit; however 'cheap', (??? $500-$600?) farmers and ranchers that I've known don't own or use ak47s for pest management, that's just absurd.

You'll have to provide verifiable citations to that 'fact' before I'll entertain it.

BSG--what kind of guns did they use and how did they functionally differ from the AK-47? Granted some might use shot guns, but if they use semi automatic rifles, how do they differ from the AK 47s?

[liberty]

Why not compromise? Instead of controlling guns control who can own guns; that would not be unconstitutional and would be something that NRA members would support. A group that should not have guns are gang bangers; they can not be depended on to defend the country or to obey laws.

Oh, lib. There you go again.

Secondly, you just can't resist bringing race into it, can you? "Gang bangers" - we all know that you have just put the emphasis on certain black people because that's what the codeword "gang bangers" means.

.

Mr. Meade are you saying that only blacks are gang bangers. True it would apply to black intercity gangs, but it would also apply to the Hells Angles or any group or individual who engages in crime or can not be relied on to defend it country in time of emergency. In my scenario, in Louisiana it would be the adjutant general that would determine who would be allowed to on the militia rolls and be placed in the data base and issue a card that would low them to buy guns and ammunition. Of course there would be appeals available.

An attempt to buy guns or ammunition without authorization would be a crime equivalent to murder.

[Joe Guy]

[MajGenl.Meade]

My apologies, lib. I should have written, "We all know that you have just put the emphasis on certain black people because that's what the codeword "gang bangers" means to you.

But it is cute that you can deny it afterwards by pretending you meant Lost Hell's Angeles or perhaps any group involved in a crime (Trump voters) or even any individual who commits a crime (Lindsay Lohan).

See, this is how we all get the erroneous impression that you're a bit of a race baiter.

[Burning Petard]

Fifty years ago AK47's were considered 'junk 'military surplus from China, or USSR client states, simply modified for semi-auto only by importers and sold regularly at ordinary guns stores for less than a hundred dollars and military surplus ammo probably from Viet Nam sold for about a dime or less a round. Sorry Bo Sox, the publication 'Shotgun News' is not available in a digitized archive.

Actual, practical limitation of private gun usage could be very simply accomplished by federal safety regulation on the manufacture and import of primers.

It is political will that is lacking.

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[edit. Yes, I exaggerated. it was not fifty years ago, but shortly after 1974 when the Soviets dumped the AK47 for a new more modern design (AK74) that used a smaller cartridge, similar to the M16, rather than the .30 caliber for the AK47.]

[Lord Jim]

any individual who commits a crime (Lindsay Lohan).

In the case of Miss Lohan, "gangbanging" would probably have an entirely different meaning...

[BoSoxGal]

Whatever the cost of surplus or contemporary AKs, I never saw a rancher or farmer out in Montana using such a weapon to control pest animals. Shotguns/rifles, often handed down, etc. The only people I've known who felt the need to own and play with AKs were military survivalists and a couple of lawyers I worked for who were nice but clearly collecting whatever would serve as penis substitutes in the form of guns, cars, boats, etc.

YMMV.

Clearly people own them, there are plenty out there - chillingly. But like I said, I've never seen ranchers or farmers using them as you suggested in the West (Southwest, Mountain West) or here in New England, so I guess it's a crazy Midwest thing if true.

[liberty]

My apologies, lib. I should have written, "We all know that you have just put the emphasis on certain black people because that's what the codeword "gang bangers" means to you.

If I like a word I am going to use it and I don’t are who coined it. This idea that whites can’t use black words is BS. I also like the word honkey do you have a problem with that? Are there any other words I need to run by you?

[dales]

Those blokes were in my high school geometry class in 1968!

[MajGenl.Meade]

My apologies, lib. I should have written, "We all know that you have just put the emphasis on certain black people because that's what the codeword "gang bangers" means to you.

If I like a word I am going to use it and I don’t are who coined it. This idea that whites can’t use black words is BS. I also like the word honkey do you have a problem with that? Are there any other words I need to run by you?

Not at all. Glad to see you agree that your use of "gang bangers" was an intentional use of "black words". Once again, can't you get a teensy inkling of how some people just might find you a bit on the naughty side of the racial divide?

[rubato]

I call bullshit; however 'cheap', (??? $500-$600?) farmers and ranchers that I've known don't own or use ak47s for pest management, that's just absurd.

You'll have to provide verifiable citations to that 'fact' before I'll entertain it.

The only farmers and ranchers I knew with guns had the cheapest thing they could get that did the job. And that is not an assault rifle.

yrs.
rubato

[kmccune]

Seriously ,I do not see the need for auto or even semi auto weapons(ever see how fast a determined person can 10 rounds through a 10/22 Ruger ?)I love guns but think a mauser action 3 round clip( plus one in the chamber is plenty of firepower for most situations,some of these calibers are so powerful that one shot is generally all that is needed,a jacketed .338 magnum will pretty much get the job done in most situations,then there is always .50 BMG. One of the wanks I was acquainted had a street sweeper he was proud of( would almost bet he was conservative )

[rubato]

http://www.vox.com/2016/6/15/11946418/u ... cox-speech

A nice summary.

yrs,
rubato

[Burning Petard]

I found interesting the opinion column of Nicholas Kristof in today's NY Times. An excerpt:

"Over the last two decades, Canada has had eight mass shootings. Just so far this month, the United States has already had 20.
Canada has a much smaller population, of course, and the criteria researchers used for each country are slightly different, but that still says something important about public safety.
Could it be, as Donald Trump suggests, that the peril comes from admitting Muslims? On the contrary, Canadians are safe despite having been far more hospitable to Muslim refugees: Canada has admitted more than 27,000 Syrian refugees since November, some 10 times the number the United States has.
More broadly, Canada’s population is 3.2 percent Muslim, while the United States is about 1 percent Muslim — yet Canada doesn’t have massacres like the one we just experienced at a gay nightclub in Orlando, Fla., or the one in December in San Bernardino, Calif. So perhaps the problem isn’t so much Muslims out of control but guns out of control."

I argue it is not out of control guns, but out of control bigots and fear of 'other' that seems to be an essential part of the American character. But what ever your position, the difference in numbers in Canada and the USA is worthy of consideration My first business trip to Canada (Toronto abut 20 years ago) forced me to believe that Toronto was far more 'multi-cultural' and accepting of each other, than anyplace I had been to in the USofA.

the complete essay is at: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/16/opini ... inion&_r=0

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