Catholic discount

[Lord Jim]

Good luck with that Meade, let me know how it works out for you...

[rubato]

"... to commemorate the death and descent into hell of jesus before the resurrection ... "

I don't recall ever having heard this belief before; Jesus is believed to have gone to hell? goodness, what will I hear next?

"... As for protestant denominations, at least for western ones, most are based originally in the RC church, ... "

My word. Don't tell the Huegenots, Waldensies, Cathars, Mennonites, Mormons, Quakers, Puritans, Seventh Day Adventists, &c &c &c.

What you'll hear next is the total evisceration of your thoroughly incorrect statement.

Big RR wrote (and let's quote ALL of his paragraph instead of curtailing it, shall we?):
As for protestant denominations, at least for western ones, most are based originally in the RC church, although they have many theological and other differences. Many started out with RC practices, or split from churches that had such practices.

He is bound to be correct because there was only the Roman Catholic church at first which, as he mentioned above, split into Western and Eastern parts. All Protestant denominations named by rubato descend from the Roman church. Big RR generously allowed "most". Many did indeed start out with RC practices and every one of rubato's "Don't Tell" list either kept Roman practices or split from churches that had retained them.

Cathars (1143) Roman Catholics who opposed certain Roman practices and theology. Extinguished by Rome by 1330

Waldenses (1191) Roman Catholics who opposed certain Roman practices and theology. Declared to be heretics 1215. Perhaps the seed of the Reformation; aligned with the Reformed church in 1532

Protestant Reformation (1517)

Lutheranism; Roman Catholics who rejected the Pope etc. but kept Roman beliefs and forms including transubstantiation

Anabaptists (1525) – Roman Catholics who opposed certain Roman practices and theology; and later opposed some Protestant beliefs. A key leader was Menno Simons, a Catholic priest who finally left the Roman church in 1536 and whose followers are Mennonites

Calvinism (1536) – pejorative term for the Reformed church movement used by Lutherans; Cathlics who broke with Rome and eventually with Lutheranism over the Eucharist

Huguenots (1550+) – pejorative term by Rome; Roman Catholics inspired by Calvinist theology and missionaries to become part of the Reformed church

Puritans (1559) - members of the Church of England which was a protestant outgrowth of the Roman Church with many of its practices; broke with the Church of England by 1662

Quakers (1650s) – members of the Church of England which was a protestant outgrowth of the Roman Church with many of its practices; broke with the Church of England by 1662

Mormons (1820s) – Protestants who decided not to be Christians after all

7th Day Adventism (1863) – an outgrowth of the Baptist movement (1609) which broke with the Church of England in objection to that denomination's retention of Roman practices and abuses. William Miller in the USA broke with the Baptists and the 7th Day church was formed in 1863 by people who broke with Miller

Unless the members of such movements (those that survived anyway) are totally pig ignorant, it would be no surprise for them to hear Big RR say that they descended from the Roman church or from those protestant denominations who retain Roman practice.


In reference to your first claim of ignorance, 1 Peter 3:18-20 is interpreted by some to mean that Christ descended to Hell. Because Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, to bring you to God, by being put to death in the flesh but by being made alive in the spirit. In it he went and preached to the spirits in prison, after they were disobedient long ago when God patiently waited in the days of Noah as an ark was being constructed.

Those who hold this view regard Ephesians 4:8-9, “When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, And He gave gifts to men.” and verse 9: Now, what does “he went up” mean? It means that first he came down to the lowest depths of the earth as supportive.

In my own church there are those who believe that interpretation and those who don't. It does not matter which is correct since all can agree it is not an essential element of faith.

Mere assertion does not make any of those things true. You are ignorantly repeating the Catholic dogma that they are (were) the "one true church" and were the sole origins of Christian faith and practrice. Christianity preceded the RC church and its dogmas, rituals, &c. Cathars did not trace their theology or history to the Roman Church.

Catharism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Cathar" and "The Good Men" redirect here. For the Dutch house music duo, see Zki & Dobre. For other uses, see Cathar (disambiguation).
The Occitan cross was a "Cathar rallying symbol".[1]

Catharism (/ˈkæθərɪzəm/; from the Greek: καθαροί, katharoi, "the pure [ones]")[2][3] was a Christian dualist or Gnostic revival[4] movement that thrived in some areas of Southern Europe, particularly northern Italy and southern France, between the 12th and 14th centuries. Cathar beliefs varied between communities, because Catharism was initially taught by ascetic priests, who had set few guidelines. The Catholic Church denounced its practices including the 'Consolamentum' ritual, by which Cathar individuals were baptized and raised to the status of 'perfect'.[5]

Catharism had its roots in the Paulician movement in Armenia and eastern Byzantine Anatolia and the Bogomils of the First Bulgarian Empire,[6] who were influenced by the Paulicians resettled in Thrace (Philipopolis) by the Byzantines. Though the term "Cathar" (/ˈkæθɑːr/) has been used for centuries to identify the movement, whether the movement identified itself with this name is debatable.[7] In Cathar texts, the terms "Good Men" (Bons Hommes) or "Good Christians" are the common terms of self-identification.[8] The idea of two Gods or principles, one being good and the other evil, was central to Cathar beliefs. The good God was the God of the New Testament and the creator of the spiritual realm, contrasted with the evil Old Testament God—the creator of the physical world whom many Cathars, and particularly their persecutors, identified as Satan. All visible matter, including the human body, was created by this evil god; it was therefore tainted with sin. This was the antithesis to the monotheistic Catholic Church, whose fundamental principle was that there was only one God, who created all things visible and invisible.[9] Cathars thought human spirits were the genderless spirits of angels trapped within the physical creation of the evil god, cursed to be reincarnated until the Cathar faithful achieved salvation through a ritual called the consolamentum.[10]

From the beginning of his reign, Pope Innocent III attempted to end Catharism by sending missionaries and by persuading the local authorities to act against them. In 1208 Innocent's papal legate Pierre de Castelnau was murdered while returning to Rome after excommunicating Count Raymond VI of Toulouse, who, in his view, was too lenient with the Cathars.[11] Pope Innocent III then abandoned the option of sending Catholic missionaries and jurists, declared Pierre de Castelnau a martyr and launched the Albigensian Crusade.[11][12]

The RC church assembled and interpreted various texts which went into their scripture. They did not write those texts, they did not originate most of those ideas. Many others were doing something similar then and later. A later person finding those texts can interpret them w/o knowing of the existence of RC dogmas and thus can honestly claim that their beliefs did not originate in the RC church.


The rest of your post just repeats the same errors


"Hell" appears not to be mentioned because "hell" as a place of eternal torment is not Biblical in origin. It is a later invention of primitive people.


yrs,
rubato

[Big RR]

A later person finding those texts can interpret them w/o knowing of the existence of RC dogmas and thus can honestly claim that their beliefs did not originate in the RC church.

OK, but name a religion that did; and name a protestant religion that did not utilize the RC bible and its practices and even creeds to form the basis of its beliefs. these were churches that split from the church of Rome, or churches that originally split from it--not from the Eastern churches, and not because the happened to come upon some scriptures and invent their own religion. By your own discussion of the Cathars, the original teachers were ascetic priests--if it is your contention these were not priests in the RC church you can support it, but the pope was trying to continue the RC church control of that area, even to the point of launching a crusade according to what you quoted.

You are ignorantly repeating the Catholic dogma that they are (were) the "one true church" and were the sole origins of Christian faith and practrice. Christianity preceded the RC church and its dogmas, rituals, &c. Cathars did not trace their theology or history to the Roman Church.

Neither Meade nor I are saying that--there may well have been other ancient Christian religions which did not wind up in the catholic system, or the church of Rome after the great schism, but none appear to exist to this day. And the modern protestant churches all stemmed from the RC church, unless you can show one that did not; these people were ignorant of the teachings of the RC church, they disputed them and formed religions in line with their own understandings, taking some Roman traditions and discarding others, but were still originally from the RC church.

[Lord Jim]

"Hell" appears not to be mentioned because "hell" as a place of eternal torment is not Biblical in origin. It is a later invention of primitive people.


yrs,
rubato

LOL

Well, there he goes again...

The idea that hell is a place of "eternal torment" is not biblical.

We've been over this before.

yrs,
rubato

Yes, indeed we have, and you were proven to not know what you were talking about when you made that claim the last time, which makes it doubly puzzling as to why you would bring it up again.....(Perhaps when you are proven wrong about something,, you simply erase that fact from your memory....that would certainly explain a lot...this is far from the first time that you have chosen to re-bring up something you were proven wrong about...)

"Hell" as a place of eternal punishment does not exist in scripture

22 . . . the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. (Luke 16:22-28)

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
—Daniel 12:2

But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.
—Matthew 5:22

And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.
—Mark 9:44

They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
—2 Thessalonians 1:9

ETA:

BTW rube, I suppose I should give you some credit here...

That post that I reposted correcting your false claim a second time is from four years ago...

Normally your time line for reposting crap that's already been proven wrong is much shorter then that...

[Econoline]

The biblical sources you cite do, however, show that the idea of hell as a place of "eternal torment" was invented by the Christians (or the Romans?) and does not come from the Jewish Bible (the Old Testament).

[Bicycle Bill]

The biblical sources you cite do, however, show that the idea of hell as a place of "eternal torment" was invented by the Christians (or the Romans?) and does not come from the Jewish Bible (the Old Testament).

Most of those quotes are indeed from the New Testament and were written by the apostles after the life of Christ.  However, this passage

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
—Daniel 12:2

is from the Book of Daniel in the Old Testament.

Daniel is considered to be one of the major prophets, and the Book of Daniel itself is an "account of the activities and visions of Daniel, a noble Jew exiled at Babylon".  In the Hebrew Bible it is found in the Ketuvim.

-"BB"-

[Econoline]

I know that. But the quote (a) specifies that the dead merely "sleep in the dust" (as do many other references to Sheol or the underworld in the Tanakh) and the "shame and everlasting contempt" refers to a time after "many" of the dead are resurrected*; and (2) there is quite a difference between the eternal torture of hellfire envisioned by Christians and the "shame and everlasting contempt" envisioned by Daniel.





*AFAIK there are no other references to the wholesale resurrection of the dead anywhere else in Jewish scripture, which makes Daniel a bit of an oddball.

[MajGenl.Meade]

And the modern protestant churches all stemmed from the RC church, unless you can show one that did not; these people were NOT ignorant of the teachings of the RC church, they disputed them and formed religions in line with their own understandings, taking some Roman traditions and discarding others, but were still originally from the RC church.

Good post, Big RR. I have made a slight (ahem) correction that you perhaps intended to be read???

[kmccune]

Much confusion about Hell,according to some sources no one escapes Hell,when you are buried you are placed in Hell.Jesus did indeed descend into Hell,I think it was Sheol rather then Tarteros(or what the lake of fire or abyss was termed)He preached to the spirits imprisoned there since the time of Noah,so if you think there is no chance for redemption aside from the fire of "eternal destruction " think again,man was not created to be destroyed in Hellfire,repent now !
The "New Adam " wants you to join His ranks ,the Father made it possible .

[Big RR]

And the modern protestant churches all stemmed from the RC church, unless you can show one that did not; these people were NOT ignorant of the teachings of the RC church, they disputed them and formed religions in line with their own understandings, taking some Roman traditions and discarding others, but were still originally from the RC church.

Good post, Big RR. I have made a slight (ahem) correction that you perhaps intended to be read???

thanks Meade--it's good to know someone has my back.

[Lord Jim]

"Hell" appears not to be mentioned because "hell" as a place of eternal torment is not Biblical in origin. It is a later invention of primitive people.


yrs,
rubato

It should also be pointed out that while the concept of hell as a place of "eternal torment" clearly does have its origins in the Bible, the more richly developed literary imagery commonly associated with the concept of hell in the western tradition springs from the writings of those two well-known "primitive people" Dante Alighieri and John Milton...

[oldr_n_wsr]

I've been to hell.
It's origins are in all of us, both the primitive and the advanced. (what ever "advanced" means) ***


***and the middlings.

[Gob]

Just goes to show how silly it is to base your life and morality around some ancient fairy tales.

[RayThom]

Just goes to show how silly it is to base your life and morality around some ancient fairy tales.

You're preaching to the choir, Brother Gob. I say hallelujah and amen to that.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Just goes to show how silly it is to base your life and morality around some ancient fairy tales.

You should stop doing that at once, Gob! Turn to the truth!

[rubato]

Just goes to show how silly it is to base your life and morality around some ancient fairy tales.

Not just silly, kind of mean actually.


yrs,
rubato

[MajGenl.Meade]

Don't be so mean to Gob

[BoSoxGal]

Hell is other people.

[oldr_n_wsr]

I've been to hell. Other people were not the problem.

[Big RR]

Perhaps, but I know people who could take it a paradise and make it hell merely by being there.