What you need to know about the Oregon standoff

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Long Run
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Re: What you need to know about the Oregon standoff

Post by Long Run »

Go ahead, I'm listening, let's hear them.
Below is a good article from a local law professor that explains the evolution of western public lands policy. For decades that became centuries, the federal government encouraged families to use western lands, and, of course, gave much of the land away as well. The intent and understanding was to use this valuable resource for the benefit of the families involved, which, in turn, benefited the region and the country. Legally, the government can change its mind and reduce or eliminate the use of such lands, but given the history, this is breaking a promise, just as cutting Social Security benefits would be considered breaking a promise. There was a deal, and one side met its obligations and the government changed its mind. The Social Security deal won't be broken because there is too much political clout, but rural westerners have no such political leverage and their livelihoods are determined by people like us, who sit in comfortable offices and know little to nothing of what it takes to make a living there, and apparently don't have much of a knowledge of the history of the deal.

By James Huffman

On January 2, 2016, a group of individuals from several western states took control of the headquarters of Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in southeast Oregon. The group’s leader, Ammon Bundy, declared that the immediate reason for the illegal takeover of the then-unoccupied facility was the imprisonment of Oregon ranchers Dwight and Steve Hammond for burning federal lands. But the group’s broader objective is the transfer of federal public lands to state and local governments, an objective shared by many rural westerners, though few agree with the group’s radical methods.

Seldom do the concerns of rural westerners attract the attention of their urban neighbors, let alone the national media. Give the occupiers of the Malheur National Wildlife Reserve headquarters credit for accomplishing that. They are not likely to accomplish anything else.

But that their methods are both clumsy and illegal should not obscure the symbolism of their confrontation with federal authorities. The conflict between public ownership of vast expanses of the American west and the aspirations of the relatively few people who call the rural west home has deep roots. While the farmers, ranchers, loggers, and miners still hanging on have legitimate complaints based on reasonable differences of opinion about natural resource policy, the solutions envisioned by the Malheur gang and most other protestors are wishful thinking reflecting legal misunderstanding, imagined history, and political naiveté.

On the political front, rural westerners are overwhelmingly outnumbered. Ever since the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 1964 that legislators in both houses of state legislatures must be elected on a one-person-one-vote basis, rural communities have been ruled by urban voters. While there are still a few states (e.g. Idaho, Wyoming, and Utah) where rural citizens have political pull, the federal lands are beyond their reach for legal reasons explained below.

* * *

From the outset, no one imagined that the United States would retain proprietary title to even a tiny fraction of these lands. One of the principal challenges of the new national government was to figure out how best to transfer its real estate empire to private owners.

* * *
the presumption was that the lands would be sold to generate revenue for education. Along the way Congress convened two public lands commissions (one in 1879-1883 and the other in 1903-1905), both of which reaffirmed the default policy of public lands disposal.

* * *
Like the reserved forest lands administered by the Forest Service and harvested by private interests, the grazing act provided for continued public ownership of land to be administered by the Department of Interior Grazing Service with private use of the resource.

With the birth of the modern environmental movement and new demands on the public lands from a growing population, a fourth public lands commission was convened in 1964. Again the issue of disposal versus retention was addressed, and when it issued its final report in 1970, the commission came down firmly on the side of retention with improved federal management. The national forests were already subject to the Multiple Use, Sustained-Yield Act of 1960, and the Wilderness Act of 1964 provided for the preservation of large tracts of federal lands. Following on the commission’s report, Congress further regulated Forest Service management with the Renewable Resources Planning Act of 1974 and the National Forest Management Act of 1976.

Congress also undertook in the Federal Land Policy and Management Act of 1976 to provide for structured management of the millions of acres of federal lands never claimed for private use and not reserved for special management, long under the purview of the General Land Office and later the Bureau of Land Management. Of course other federal laws like the Administrative Procedures Act and the Endangered Species Act added to the rapidly expanding federal land management bureaucracy.

The succeeding four decades have witnessed a steady and significant decline in private access to public lands for commercial purposes. Logging has been drastically curtailed while mining and grazing have been subjected to ever-more restrictive regulation. The Reagan-era sagebrush rebellion, today’s state legislative initiatives like Utah’s 2012 Transfer of Public Lands Act, and the occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Reserve headquarters are all testimony to the resulting unhappiness in the rural west. But to the extent the plea is that lands controlled by the federal government were taken from the states and should be returned, there is simply no basis for the claim in the historical record.

* * *
So the symbolism of the Malheur occupation is twofold. On the one hand, the occupation of federal lands devoted to purposes largely inconsistent with maintaining a viable rural economy underscores the frustration and sense of powerlessness shared by many rural citizens, despite the protesters’ doubtful legitimacy as representatives of the rural west. On the other hand, the futility of commandeering an insignificant and unoccupied federal outpost highlights that both treasure and reputation are easily squandered on ineffectual means.

For two centuries the federal public lands have been, as economist Rick Stroup once observed, political lands. For most of the first century of the republic, few could imagine government as a large landowner and it was in almost everyone’s interest for abundant public lands to be transferred to private owners. Westward expansion placed competing demands on the public domain leading politically influential interests to see private advantage in public ownership. The railroads encouraged reservations for parks as potential destinations for customers. The timber industry supported forest reserves that excluded competition from farmers and ranchers and resulted in several decades of close collaboration between the Forest Service and timber companies. Mining interests had no objection to federal ownership so long as they had the right to explore and develop under the 1870s mining laws. Ranchers, too, were fine with federal ownership of grazing lands so long as their grazing leases were renewed year after year.

But popular interest in environmental protection and a growing demand for outdoor recreation shifted the balance of political power. Environmentalists, wildlife advocates, and recreationists saw that their interests could be served by public ownership. The Multiple Use Act was an acknowledgment that timber harvesting had become one among many competing demands on the national forests and the Wilderness Act granted effective monopolies over large areas to politically influential preservationists and rugged recreationists. The various planning laws of the 1970s gave noncommercial interests a significant role in decisions about public land use, while the courts became available to those wanting to delay or block the chosen policies. The economic interests of rural communities had a seat at the table, but they simply could not compete politically.

Without history or law on their side, the ranchers of eastern Oregon and other rural westerners are left to politics, and in that realm they’ve had scarcely a victory in a half-century. Urban Americans have laid claim to the resources on which rural economies depend, a claim made secure by simple election math. As long as the federal government controls half of the state of Oregon, the fate of ranchers dependent on public grazing lands is virtually sealed.

So there is little wonder that an occasional rebel flaunts the law while the law-abiding contemplate lawsuits seeking to overturn two centuries of history, custom and practice. But politics will, as it always has, govern the public lands. Any change in ownership will only be accomplished politically, and the odds of political success for those seeking state or private ownership diminish with each passing day as urban populations grow and rural populations decline. The policy arguments for transferring some federal lands to state ownership are strong, and they are even stronger for the transfer of other lands to private ownership, but the politics will never allow it to happen. The only real hope, though a long shot as well, is for Congress to mandate that federal land management agencies place greater reliance on the sort of market incentives that have contributed to more effective and efficient environmental regulation.

The Malheur occupation will end sooner or later and will then be forgotten. But perhaps the protesters will have served a useful purpose if, for a few brief days, the sad plight of a few of our fellow citizens was made apparent to the nation.

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Re: What you need to know about the Oregon standoff

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Hahahaha, I edited, managed and published one of his articles when I was in law school.

He has quite the right wing bent as a Heritage Foundation fellow. I disagree with much of what he has written and hope to dig into more detail later. I was a public lands guru in law school -- we will see how much I retained.
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Long Run
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Re: What you need to know about the Oregon standoff

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Most of what I deleted was his analysis that the dufus protesters had no legal case. Just as he correctly identified the legal issues, he has accurately described how rural westerners view the issue, a view that I think has substantial merit. You can argue that the policy of land use should change due to environmental and other concerns, but just know that such decisions have a dramatic impact on real people who have lived and developed the land. There is a trade off.

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Re: What you need to know about the Oregon standoff

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Jack booted fascist thugs murder again…….SLA, Black Panther and The Weather Underground. I forget remind me how it go? When did the US stop being a fascist police state?

You need to petition your government to step up the killings. How can you expect to make progress with such a slow kill rate. How about death camps for your enemies?

You don’t care how many are killed as long as they are not your people.

Will we ever know the names of the killers?
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Re: What you need to know about the Oregon standoff

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Too many people who are opposing the federal control of land do not understand why the federal government is controlling land such as the Malheur Wildlife Refuge.  If people like the Bundys and their ilk had their way, just about every acre between Sail Rock (ME) and Cape Alva (WA) would have been plowed, planted, paved, or plundered for its mineral resources (read, coal and oil rights).  And if this means that the snail darter or the spotted owl becomes extinct, well then, so what?  They've outlived their usefulness.

The only lands these gun nuts want to be kept in federal hands are the areas managed by the Department of Natural Resources Living Targets where they can go once or twice a year to blast Bambi and other 'game animals'.
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Re: What you need to know about the Oregon standoff

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liberty wrote:Jack booted fascist thugs murder again…….SLA, Black Panther and The Weather Underground. I forget remind me how it go? When did the US stop being a fascist police state?

You need to petition your government to step up the killings. How can you expect to make progress with such a slow kill rate. How about death camps for your enemies?

You don’t care how many are killed as long as they are not your people.

Will we ever know the names of the killers?
Someone has been nipping at the stumphole whisky again.

The Symbionese Liberation Army, really? Somebody's brain is clearly permanently stuck in neutral.
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Re: What you need to know about the Oregon standoff

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

I kinda wondered about that too.
SLA - murdering, kidnapping, bank robbers? Not much wrong with taking them out.

Weather Underground - bombers, declared war on the USA? Some police opposition to that seems rather natural (!)

Black Panthers - well, depends which side of the coin is up. If not for Hoover, maybe (only maybe) they wouldn't have stooped to drug running and extortion. Maybe they would have remained a strong grass-roots movement for good. But the times, ya know... the times
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Re: What you need to know about the Oregon standoff

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well, if you listen to the c-span link that I provided there is some good info on the history of the conflict

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Re: What you need to know about the Oregon standoff

Post by Econoline »

Rather than start a new thread, I thought I'd bring this one back up just to ask
HOW THE FUCKITY FUCKING FUCK DID THIS HAPPEN?????????
A federal jury on Thursday found Ammon Bundy, his brother Ryan Bundy and five co-defendants not guilty of conspiring to prevent federal employees from doing their jobs through intimidation, threat or force during the 41-day occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.

The Bundy brothers and occupiers Jeff Banta and David Fry also were found not guilty of having guns in a federal facility. Kenneth Medenbach was found not guilty of stealing government property, and a hung jury was declared on Ryan Bundy's charge of theft of FBI surveillance cameras.

"More than we could have hoped for,'' said one of Ammon Bundy's lawyers, J. Morgan Philpot.

"Stunning,'' said defense lawyer Lisa Ludwig, who was standby counsel for Ryan Bundy.

"I'm just thrilled,'' said Neil Wampler's attorney Lisa Maxfield.

The jury of nine women and three men returned the verdicts after five hours of deliberations on Thursday in the high-profile case that riveted the state and drew national and international attention to the federal bird sanctuary in rural eastern Oregon.

Each defendant stood separately, facing the jury, as the judge read the verdicts. Ammon Bundy, his hands clasped behind his back, nodded as the "not guilty'' verdicts were read for him first. As he sat, he smiled and rubbed the shoulder of his lawyer, Marcus Mumford.

His older brother Ryan Bundy stood. As his "not guilty'' verdicts were read, he nodded, and mouthed to the jury, "Thank you.'' Defendant Neil Wampler hugged and kissed his defense lawyer, Maxfield.
[ . . . ]
Just after the verdicts were announced, people emerged onto the front steps of the courthouse to tell a crowd of media and onlookers.

Supporters of the defendants gathered in a joyous hug. One of them, Brand Thornton of Las Vegas, one of the original occupiers who accompanied Ryan Bundy and others onto the refuge on Jan. 2 and was called as witness by the defense, said that he has been at the trial since Oct. 2.

The verdict "means everything," Thornton said. It's huge for ranchers and land rights within Harney County and across the West, he said.

"We did something peaceful and wanted to stay peaceful," said Thornton, who has kept vigil outside the courthouse, blowing a shofar.

"This is for the people of Oregon," Thornton said. "This was never for us."

Wampler appeared on the courthouse steps and described the verdict as a "stunning victory for rural America."

David Fry's lawyer Per C. Olson said, "It was the right result.''

"I think the jury saw through this that they were well-meaning, well-intentioned individuals,'' Olson said. The jury saw that the defendants cared about the Hammonds and didn't like how the federal government was treating them.

Maxfield, who represented Wampler, came out of the courthouse, holding up her fists. She said she has never seen "anything like this happen,'' where multiple defendants in a federal court trial were all acquitted, and called it one of the most significant cases in her career.

Defendant Shawna Cox said she had a "peaceful feeling,'' as she waited for the verdicts, "but I didn't expect we'd all be found not guilty.''

"I wept,'' Cox said. "It brings me to tears. I'm so grateful to the jury.''

Defense lawyer Matthew Schindler, standby counsel to defendant Kenneth Medenbach who was excused from court because of medical ailments, said he called his client right away.

"He's been fighting for more than 20 years to be in a situation where a jury acquitted him,'' Schindler said. "It's vindication.''

Schindler said he believes the jury's verdicts resulted from the difficulty the government had in proving that the "intent'' of the defendants was to conspire against the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and U.S. Bureau of Land Management.

"The judge gave us broad ability to bring in a defendant's state of mind and what you saw was a number of defendants who each had their own motivations,'' Schindler said.

When prosecuting a drug conspiracy, it's easy to point to what the defendants' underlying objective is. But in this case, Schindler said, there was "no obvious underlying self interest.'' He said the defense also was bolstered because the jurors came from different regions from the state, and not just from Portland.

Oregon U.S. Attorney Billy Williams sat in the back of the courtroom with Oregon's FBI Special Agent in Charge Gregg Bretzing as the verdicts were read. Williams left the courtroom early, before the scrum with Mumford, to attend a gathering of the League of Minority Voters in Salem Thursday night.

Harney County Sheriff Dave Ward, who was the face of law enforcement during the 41-day refuge takeover, said in a statement, "While I am disappointed in the outcome, I believe our form of government and justice system to be the best in the world. These folks were tried in a court of law and found not guilty by a jury of their peers. This is our system, and I stand by it.''

The five-week trial offered a rare display: Three of the seven defendants chose to represent themselves. Five of them were among the more than 80 people who took the witness stand to testify.

And one of the original 12 jurors was dismissed after a fellow juror raised concerns about his impartiality four days into an initial round of deliberations - what the judge called an "extraordinary circumstance.'' An alternate juror was summoned to begin a new round of deliberations with the remaining 11 jurors Thursday morning.

There was heightened security in and around the courthouse throughout the trial, with security officers ordered to wear bulletproof vests, and metal detectors set up outside the main trial courtroom and an overflow room with a live video feed of the proceedings.

Often, supporters knelt in prayer in the courthouse corridor before the trial began in the mornings, and some kept vigil across the street, with one fellow occupier blowing a ram's horn, or shofar, as the jury deliberated.
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Crackpot
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Re: What you need to know about the Oregon standoff

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Jury nullification
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Lord Jim
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Re: What you need to know about the Oregon standoff

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Wow...
"More than we could have hoped for,'' said one of Ammon Bundy's lawyers, J. Morgan Philpot.
Ya think? :shrug

I'm inclined to agree with Crackpot...

I'd like to see more analysis of how the trial went, (and some interviews with the jurors explaining their reasoning) but it looks to me that like in the OJ Simpson case, the prosecutors must have had thought they had such a slam dunk that they completely fell down on the job in the jury selection process...

But unlike the Simpson case, these guys didn't have a world class defense team. Hell some of them even defended themselves which is usually the kiss of death....

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Re: What you need to know about the Oregon standoff

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As I read about this in the NY Times this morning, the feds brought the wrong charges (conspiracy) with a weak set of proofs agains the legal definition of the crime they were accused of in this case. BUT. They were immediately taken back to jail, pending legal processes in other jurisdictions.

However, reading thru the posts above I came across this:

"Too many people who are opposing the federal control of land do not understand why the federal government is controlling land such as the Malheur Wildlife Refuge. If people like the Bundys and their ilk had their way, just about every acre between Sail Rock (ME) and Cape Alva (WA) would have been plowed, planted, paved, or plundered for its mineral resources (read, coal and oil rights). And if this means that the snail darter or the spotted owl becomes extinct, well then, so what? They've outlived their usefulness."

The attitude expressed in by the poster above is NOT at the general view of gun nuts, but another American minority who call themselves good Christians. They hold it is their God-given duty to plow, plant, plunder, pave, SUBDUE all the earth including the oceans, based on the King James Version of Genesis 1:28 "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

Sustainability? who cares. After the earth is "subdued" and rendered barren as the Saharan Desert, God will just step in and bring His final solution for us all. Never mind the instruction to replenish it as well as subdue.

snailgate

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Long Run
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Re: What you need to know about the Oregon standoff

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An alternate theory of this surprising result might be that, as is its typical practice, the media painted a one-sided narrative. At the trial, a more complete picture is described to the jury and the prosecution is not able to meet the high standard for a conviction. There have been many examples of this pattern, as the media's behavior has become less about objectively reporting the news and more about selling advertising.

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Re: What you need to know about the Oregon standoff

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Yeah, but Long Run....
The Bundy brothers and occupiers Jeff Banta and David Fry also were found not guilty of having guns in a federal facility.
The media didn't fake all of that video footage of these goobers walking around with well, guns in a federal facility...
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Re: What you need to know about the Oregon standoff

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Maybe they left their guns outside the facility? :shrug

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Re: What you need to know about the Oregon standoff

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I'm not entirely surprised that the US Attorney screwed up a conspiracy case, as it's difficult to meet the intent standard with a jury unless you have very good evidence of a meeting of the minds on the objectives of the alleged conspiracy - it sounds like the government's case was very weak in this regard.

I'm bewildered by the acquittals on the guns charges, unless that was jury nullification.

I'm glad they are facing other charges in other jurisdictions, but I'm dismayed at the result of this case because the legal nuances will be lost and the general public will get the message that this type of behavior won't be held accountable, which will only encourage more nutjobs to act out in this manner when they don't like federal policy.
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Re: What you need to know about the Oregon standoff

Post by Bicycle Bill »

Lord Jim wrote:Yeah, but Long Run....
The Bundy brothers and occupiers Jeff Banta and David Fry also were found not guilty of having guns in a federal facility.
The media didn't fake all of that video footage of these goobers walking around with well, guns in a federal facility...
I'm sure the jury split hairs in much the same way the Bundys et al did.  If this hand-picked jury, which I'm sure was as Bundy-friendly as the defense attorneys could make it, was willing to accept the Bundy reasoning that the facility was in fact "open land" and not subject to government administration and regulation, then the refuge/buildings/etc. should not have been there and legally *were* not there.  No facility to carry guns into/around/etc.; no crime.

Same with the "conspiring to prevent federal employees from doing their jobs through intimidation, threat or force" charge.  No legal federal facility = no legal federal employees.  Plus I've seen at least one follow-up to this that states the employees were told by their superiors not to try to return to the site and resume their duties, so once again it was *their* choice not to come to work (the fact that they were advised not to return to work because there was a pack of nutcases running around with semi-automatic weapons notwithstanding).

There probably is no short answer.
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Re: What you need to know about the Oregon standoff

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Someone found the OJ jury!


yrs,
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Re: What you need to know about the Oregon standoff

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Burning Petard wrote:The attitude expressed in by the poster above is NOT at the general view of gun nuts, but another American minority who call themselves good Christians. They hold it is their God-given duty to plow, plant, plunder, pave, SUBDUE all the earth including the oceans, based on the King James Version of Genesis 1:28 "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

Sustainability? who cares. After the earth is "subdued" and rendered barren as the Saharan Desert, God will just step in and bring His final solution for us all. Never mind the instruction to replenish it as well as subdue.

snailgate
What unmitigated bull pucky
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Re: What you need to know about the Oregon standoff

Post by rubato »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:
Burning Petard wrote:The attitude expressed in by the poster above is NOT at the general view of gun nuts, but another American minority who call themselves good Christians. They hold it is their God-given duty to plow, plant, plunder, pave, SUBDUE all the earth including the oceans, based on the King James Version of Genesis 1:28 "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

Sustainability? who cares. After the earth is "subdued" and rendered barren as the Saharan Desert, God will just step in and bring His final solution for us all. Never mind the instruction to replenish it as well as subdue.

snailgate
What unmitigated bull pucky

Except that it was the explicit policy of James Watt, secretary of the interior to Ronald Reagan.

In 1980, President-elect Reagan nominated Watt as his Secretary of the Interior. The United States Senate subsequently confirmed the nomination.

His tenure as Secretary of the Interior was controversial, primarily because he was perceived as being hostile to environmentalism, and endorsed development of federal lands by foresting and ranching, and for other commercial interests.

According to the Center for Biological Diversity, Watt had the record, among those who served as Secretary of the Interior, of listing the fewest number of species protected under the Endangered Species Act. The record was later surpassed by Dirk Kempthorne, a George W. Bush appointee who, as of August 27, 2007 [needs update], had not listed a single species in the 15-month period since his confirmation.[4]

Greg Wetstone, the chief environment counsel at the House Energy and Commerce Committee during the Reagan administration, who subsequently served as director of advocacy at the Natural Resources Defense Council, argued that Watt was one of the two most "intensely controversial and blatantly anti-environmental political appointees" in American history. (The other was Anne Gorsuch, director of the EPA at the time.[5] Environmental groups accused Watt of reducing funding for environmental programs,[6] restructuring the department to decrease federal regulatory power,[6] wanting to eliminate the Land and Water Conservation Fund which aimed at increasing the area of wildlife refuges and other protected land,[6] easing regulations of oil[6] and mining,[6][7] directing the National Park Service to draft rules that would de-authorize congressionally authorized national parks,[citation needed] and recommending lease of wilderness and shore lands such as Santa Monica Bay to explore and develop oil and gas.[6]

Watt resisted accepting donation of private land to be used for conservation.[8] He suggested that 80 million acres (320,000 km²) of undeveloped land in the United States all be opened for drilling and mining by 2000.[8] The area leased to coal mining quintupled during his term as Secretary of the Interior.[8] Watt boasted that he leased "a billion acres" (4 million km²) of coastal waters, even though only a small portion of that area would ever be drilled.[8] Watt once stated, "We will mine more, drill more, cut more timber."[9]

Watt periodically mentioned his Dispensationalist Christian faith when discussing his method of environmental management. Speaking before Congress, he once said, "I do not know how many future generations we can count on before the Lord returns, whatever it is we have to manage with a skill to leave the resources needed for future generations."

One apocryphal quote attributed to Watt is "After the last tree is felled, Christ will come back", although the statement has not been confirmed. Glenn Scherer, writing for Grist magazine, erroneously attributed this remark to the 1981 testimony by Watt before Congress.[10] Journalist Bill Moyers, relying on the Grist article, also attributed the comment to Watt. After it was discovered that the quote was mistaken, Grist corrected the error, and Moyers apologized.[11] Watt denied the attribution, and protested such characterization of his policy.[12]

And is still the policy of many RW Christians in government.

yrs,
rubato

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