Why Hillary Lost

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Lord Jim
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Why Hillary Lost

Post by Lord Jim »

I posted about this the day after the election; here's an article that illustrates the point in more detail:
Fri., Nov. 11, 2016
What Went Wrong?

It appears we’re in that stage of the post-election grieving process where everyone’s playing the blame game. Blame the Democratic National Committee, blame the mainstream press, blame sexism, blame xenophobia, blame the electoral college, blame the pollsters, blame third-party voters, blame Comey.

I get it: blame is cathartic. But if you’re looking to cast admonishment here, I’d like to point out an elephant (bad pun, sorry) in the room that isn’t getting nearly enough attention: the people who didn’t vote.

The numbers don’t lie: six million fewer Democrats turned out to vote for Hillary Clinton than President Obama in 2012, and about 9.5 million fewer voters showed up for Clinton than Obama in 2008. There were several cities (Columbus, OH and Miami, according to the Wall Street Journal) where Clinton actually outperformed Obama’s bid four years ago, and exit polls also show Hillary made inroads with college educated whites living in suburbs, but ultimately these were inconsequential victories, as she underperformed in areas that had been Democratic strongholds for decades. Clinton drew 90,000 fewer votes in Michigan’s Wayne County than Obama did in 2012. She received 28,000 fewer votes in Philadelphia than Obama got during the last election. She counted 60,000 fewer votes in Milwaukee County than our current president took four years earlier.

This pattern, repeated in key battlegrounds across the Midwest, is what ultimately cost Clinton blue mainstays MI, PA and WI, allowing Donald Trump to redraw the electoral map
by taking a larger share of what had been for years a shrinking electorate (rural white votes), where his nostalgic populism gained the most traction.

Incredibly, Trump — who was also a wildly unpopular candidate — was a victim of the same phenomenon: he managed to win the presidency though he received two million total fewer votes than Romney in 2012 and 1.5 million fewer votes than McCain in 2008. He even lost the popular vote to Clinton.

Sure, third-party tickets siphoned some votes from both candidates. Early CNN exit polls reported nine percent of voters ages 18-29 and eight percent of voters ages 30-44 said they voted for third parties in the election. But do the math: even when accounting for vanity votes, the shuttered polling sites and recent restrictions to the Voting Rights Act, you can’t account for a total missing deficit of eight million votes. So what went wrong? People simply didn’t show up.

Granted, the demographic breakdown of those who did vote was also puzzling. Women, who comprise about 52 percent of the electorate, were long believed to have been Clinton’s shoo-in. In the end, however, the percentage of female votes that ultimately went to Clinton was about ten points lower than most pre-vote polls predicted: 42 percent of all female voters cast their ballot for Trump, according to New York Times election poll exit stats released yesterday, and more than half of white women — 52 percent — voted for him, while only 43 percent voted for Clinton, according to CNN exit polls.

And despite all of his rhetoric regarding Mexican immigrants and a proposed border wall, the Times reported 29 percent of Latinos voted for Trump, which was more votes than Romney saw from this demographic — 27 percent — in 2012. None of this was what we expected. The media, the pollsters, the Democrats, the GOP: they all got it wrong.

So blame complacency, blame a lack of enthusiasm for the candidates, blame the fact that many voters were forced to decide based not on which candidate they liked the most but which candidate they hated least. In the end, the turnout in this election cycle — where 46.9 percent of eligible voters didn’t even bother to show up — is perhaps reflective of our collective indifference in being forced to chose between a game show host and a member of the old guard establishment. What it does not reflect is the palpable mode of panic that’s riddled the nation for the past three days now that we’re forced to confront the reality of a Trump presidency.Where was your sense of urgency when we were collecting votes?[That's a damn good question...I wonder how many of the marchers, shouters and road blockers didn't bother to get their asses to the polls...the vote numbers suggest it was quite a few...]

We only have ourselves to blame for what happened Tuesday. As it turns out, maybe we do get the leaders we deserve.
http://www.odwyerpr.com/story/public/78 ... wrong.html

Trump partisans want to claim that he won because of the legions of additional voters he brought in, but that narrative is shown irrefutably to be false by the fact that he garnered fewer votes than Mitt Romney...

(I saw Reince Preibus a couple of days ago crowing about how the RNC had learned from Romney's "mistakes" and created an extremely effective get-out-the-vote operation...I throw the bullshit flag Reince...If your operation was so great, why did it produce fewer votes then the much maligned Romney campaign?)

And some Democratic partisans want to try and blame the huge drop-off in Democratic votes on "voter suppression" laws. But as the numbers cited in the article clearly demonstrate, when you look at both the total overall drop-off in votes, and also drill down to look at where these lower vote totals occurred in the critical states, (For example, Hillary got 90,000 fewer votes in Wayne County Michigan...where Detroit is located...then Obama did, and she lost Michigan by only 13,000 votes) this explanation is no more supported by the data than Reince's claims about the great GOP voter turnout machine. Increased restrictions on early voting can't possibly explain more than a tiny fraction of the overall drop, and the drop was most critical in places where the voting laws were exactly the same as they had been in 2012.

No, the bottom line is this. The numbers clearly, inescapably and irrefutably show that the reason Hillary Clinton lost this election is because millions of people who had turned out to vote for Barack Obama in 2012 for whatever reason (maybe some of them thought she had it in the bag so they didn't have to bother, maybe some of the Bernie Bros didn't find her ideologically pure enough to be worthy of their votes) made the proactive, affirmative decision not to show up to vote for Hillary Clinton. Period.

And now a lot of them are out marching in the streets, but when they could really have made the difference, they were nowhere to be found...

And now they, and we, and the whole country will have to live with the consequences of their failure to show up when it really mattered.
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Guinevere
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Re: Why Hillary Lost

Post by Guinevere »

You have no idea how hard we worked, even Bernie himself, to get out those votes. I also truly believe some portion of it was active voter suppression and fewer polling locations.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

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Lord Jim
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Re: Why Hillary Lost

Post by Lord Jim »

I also truly believe some portion of it was active voter suppression and fewer polling locations.
I'll grant you that fewer polling places, (in some areas) and fewer early voting days (in some places) would have some impact, but again as the article points out, when you look at the numbers, it has to be a pretty small portion...

There are plenty of critical locales where you didn't have these kinds of issues and the voter drop-off was key to providing the margin of defeat...
You have no idea how hard we worked, even Bernie himself, to get out those votes.
I am certainly NOT faulting you, or Sanders, or anyone else who worked to bring out the vote, or the Clinton vote mobilization effort in general. As I pointed out before, Hillary had the most extensive get-out-the-vote operation in the history of American politics. They did everything they could to both motivate and assist people to vote. (Perhaps without this effort, the voter drop off would have been 10 million)

No, I place the blame squarely on the shoulders of the millions of Obama voters from 2012, who despite all of these efforts still simply couldn't bother themselves to vote this year. If only a couple of hundred thousand of them in several key states had bothered to show up the phrase "President-elect Trump" would not have entered the lexicon...

And the numbers irrefutably back me up in my blame placement...
Last edited by Lord Jim on Sat Nov 12, 2016 3:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Long Run
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Re: Why Hillary Lost

Post by Long Run »

That is all true, but it doesn't answer the question of why people who voted in the last couple of elections chose to not vote this year. The way I see it, about 53% of those who voted, voted against Trump. If you add in the 5-6% who normally vote, but sat this one out, you can argue that the votes "against" Trump were in the 58-60% range. Of course, the votes against Clinton were in the 55-57% range under the same reasoning. So Trump got the 40% that will always vote the R candidate, plus he managed to get enough of the swing voters in key states, and you have to give him some credit for having a message that resonated with them. Clinton, on the other hand, failed to inspire the voters that Obama attracted. Despite all of the hard work by people like Guin, Clinton simply could not expand her core support. And she and "the Establishment" were not able to sufficiently motivate voters that Trump was a danger. In the end, the reason for the missing voters is all about the candidates.

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Lord Jim
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Re: Why Hillary Lost

Post by Lord Jim »

I guess there's a way in which I take this kind of personally...

I figure that if someone like me, who in 36 years of voting had never voted for a Democrat for President before, who has a very low opinion Hillary Clinton for numerous reasons, and who completely disagrees with her philosophically on nearly every domestic policy issue...

could nevertheless, when confronted with the unique awfulness of Donald Trump, still manage to hold my nose, gird my loins, and cast my vote for her...

then people who voted for Barack Obama four years ago, and whose philosophical differences with her are marginal, but just maybe didn't feel all that "inspired" by her sure as hell should have been able to get themselves to do the same... :evil:
Last edited by Lord Jim on Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Why Hillary Lost

Post by RayThom »

In my usual spot-on sarcastic terseness -- the the worm has turned:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13607&p=171537&hili ... ve#p171537

The Democratic Party was totally myopic on Hillary and lost its way. When the next opportunity comes, a little less emphasis should be placed on the candidate and a little more effort on party viability.

The executive and legislative branches are now "R", and sadly, the judicial branch soon will be leaning that way. Since June 16, 2015 we were laughing at the disorganized Repubs and now they are laughing at us. My party is now leaderless. (Chuck Schumer... Elizabeth Warren?) There will be much rebuilding and rethinking ahead. But mostly, it will no longer be politics as usual. Hopefully, this too, shall pass.

"I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat." - Will Rogers

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Last edited by RayThom on Sat Nov 12, 2016 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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rubato
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Re: Why Hillary Lost

Post by rubato »

Hillary was the victim of a 20-year long campaign of lies and hatred. On this board I asked the Hillary haters what she had done to deserve hatred back when she was running for Senate and ad no public record to hate her for, and the usual suspects had nothing at all to back up their stupidity. Nothing.

Lies work when they are repeated often enough.



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wesw
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Re: Why Hillary Lost

Post by wesw »

false narrative..., big surprise :roll:

there were legions of rural voters brought out..., different voters....

but why see truth now :shrug

rubato
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Re: Why Hillary Lost

Post by rubato »

And who did you get back into government instead? Newt Gingrich!


Good for you! Amoral scum is what you've got, lead with it!

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Lord Jim
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Re: Why Hillary Lost

Post by Lord Jim »

Hillary was the victim of a 20-year long campaign of lies and hatred.
This is of course also proven wrong by the numbers, because as has been pointed out before, between the time Hillary left as SOS and when the existence of her unauthorized private email server became known, (and she began her campaign of lies about it) she enjoyed an approval rating with the public in the mid-sixties...

Had this supposed "20-year long campaign of lies and hatred" been so successful that would clearly not have been the case...

Additionally, a lot of the Democratic voters that couldn't be bothered to show up to vote in this election were toddlers when Bill was President...(in fact many hadn't even been born...)

And of course I'm sure rube would argue there was a quite intense "campaign of lies and hatred" against Obama, and yet 6 million more turned out to vote for him...

Plus even with this "campaign of lies and hatred" an even higher percentage of people disliked Trump than disliked Hillary.....

So for all these reasons this explanation is....oh, what's the word...oh yeah...bullshit...

Rube, you can go stand in the Bullshit Explanation Corner next to Reince...
he managed to get enough of the swing voters in key states, and you have to give him some credit for having a message that resonated with them.
It's true that Trump's campaign of hate, fear and false promises did bring out some folks to vote (particularly in rural areas in some swing states where he ran up some numbers) that hadn't voted previously. (Or at least recently)

But this would have made no difference if even a few hundred thousand of the millions of Obama voters from 2012 that sat out this election had shown up in those states...(Hillary lost Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin by only 118,000 votes collectively. Switch those three states to her column and she wins the election with 277 electoral votes)

And it's also true that in bringing out these voters, he did so at the cost of losing even more voters than he gained...

This is not my opinion; it is indisputably proven by the fact that he got fewer votes overall than Romney...

Put another way, the vile campaign Trump ran lost him more Lord Jims then it won him wesws....

But with all those Obama voters staying home, it was still enough in the battleground states to bring him electoral vote victory...
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Re: Why Hillary Lost

Post by BoSoxGal »

I agree that those voters should be ashamed.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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Scooter
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Re: Why Hillary Lost

Post by Scooter »

wesw wrote:false narrative..., big surprise :roll:

there were legions of rural voters brought out..., different voters....

but why see truth now :shrug
And yet county-by-county voter turnout in the states that flipped from D to R doesn't show any increase in rural turnout anywhere close to large enough to account for it.

Why the need to invent millions of imaginary new voters out of whole cloth to explain Trump's victory, when the numbers tell the story - there was a substantial bloc of disaffected Obama voters, largely working class, with whom Trump's message resonated enough that they rejected voting for Clinton. Many stayed home, but many voted for Trump, and together they delivered the Great Lakes states to Trump.

It is pretty much the call that you have been making all along - that the ordinary folk would stand up to the political establishment and make a change. Why deny their contribution to bringing about the result that you wanted and instead invent an agrarian uprising to account for it?

And before get yourself lathered up by reading something that isn't there, I have not levelled any criticism againt rural residents or in any way suggested that they don't count, or whatever other warped interpretations of the words I haven't typed you may come up with.
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Re: Why Hillary Lost

Post by dales »

Lord Jim posts:
I figure that if someone like me, who in 36 years of voting had never voted for a Democrat for President before, who has a very low opinion Hillary Clinton for numerous reasons, and who completely disagrees with her philosophically on nearly every domestic policy issue...

could nevertheless, when confronted with the unique awfulness of Donald Trump, still manage to hold my nose, gird my loins, and cast my vote for her...
You and me both, Jim.

I first cast my vote for Richard Nixon in 1972. :ok

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


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Big RR
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Re: Why Hillary Lost

Post by Big RR »

I think the two major things we can take away from this election is that there are major divisions in this country that have resulted in statistical ties at least twice in the last 16 years, and also that there is a lot of hopelessness among voters. After 8 years of Obama (and we can argue his achievements or the lack thereof and who is responsible for that), I think a lot of people just said "screw it, it doesn't make a difference". Sure a lot of them may have been uninspired by Hillary, some even buying into a lot of the character assassination campaign against her, and lot may not like here (I honestly don't understand this, I don't think I've liked any of the presidents in my lifetime--they all seemed like egotistical jerks; but we're electing a president, not a best buddy), but deep down I think there's a malaise of hopelessness. Trump hit some of these hopeless voters with his message of change for change's sake, and maybe a few years of Trump/pence will make some of the others stand up and be heard, but I do think hopelessness is a big problem that the dems in particular have to address before the midterms, and certainly before 2020.

Face it, in the 60s and 70s we believed we could reform government and make it work for us. We got civil rights legislation passed, ended a war, survived the assassination of one popular president and got rid of both parts of a presidential ticket that had a big victory in 72. Regardless of how you feels about any of these things, it took the efforts of a lot of people who believed in government action, and who not only voted but made their voices heard. People who honestly believed government could be made better if we got rid of the bad elements. But now we have people who won't even go to the polls, reasoning "what's the use?" We have to find a way to deal with this first, or we are condemned to more of the same--and more asinine loudmouths in Congress and the White House and state governments.

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Re: Why Hillary Lost

Post by Econoline »

Big RR wrote:Face it, in the 60s and 70s we believed we could reform government and make it work for us. We got civil rights legislation passed, ended a war, survived the assassination of one popular president and got rid of both parts of a presidential ticket that had a big victory in 72. Regardless of how you feels about any of these things, it took the efforts of a lot of people who believed in government action, and who not only voted but made their voices heard.
And with all that going on we *STILL* managed to land men on the moon and bring them back safely--on JFK's original promised schedule: "by the end of the decade."
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Re: Why Hillary Lost

Post by Big RR »

And made poverty among the poor and elderly much less severe by targeted programs, and ended a lot of the hunger in some areas by food stamps... It was a productive time--not all the programs worked as we intended them to, but some did. We can do the same again if we only choose to.

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Re: Why Hillary Lost

Post by Econoline »

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Re: Why Hillary Lost

Post by Crackpot »

Yeah this was it.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Re: Why Hillary Lost

Post by datsunaholic »

Crackpot wrote:Yeah this was it.
That was the main reason I heard several people give. Of course, those were people who would have voted for the Republican candidate no matter who it was. All they really cared about was the letter "R" next to the candidate's name. That accounts for probably close to 40% of the population (with another 40% who vote "D" no matter who it was).
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Crackpot
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Re: Why Hillary Lost

Post by Crackpot »

I was referring to the thread that I wanted to post my most recent article to. (Econo broght it up to top right after I posted my thread.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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