This Is Puzzling And Disturbing...

All the shit that doesn't fit!
If it doesn't go into the other forums, stick it in here.
A general free for all
User avatar
Lord Jim
Posts: 29716
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:44 pm
Location: TCTUTKHBDTMDITSAF

This Is Puzzling And Disturbing...

Post by Lord Jim »

Mistrial Appears Likely in Murder Trial of South Carolina Cop Who Killed a Fleeing, Unarmed Suspect

Image

It appears likely that Judge Clifton Newman will be compelled to declare a mistrial in the racially charged South Carolina murder trial of former North Charleston police officer Michael Slager, who fatally shot an unarmed man who had fled from an April 2015 traffic stop. Late Friday afternoon, a lone juror sent a letter to the judge saying that he or she could not, in good conscience, vote to convict Slager of murder or manslaughter. The judge sent word asking the jurors to clarify whether that meant they were hopelessly deadlocked. The jurors responded that they were, but the prosecutor requested that the jurors receive further instruction, if need be, and the jurors expressed a willingness to deliberate further. In the meantime, the judge has sent jurors home for the weekend.

A viral bystander video showed Slager, who is white, shooting 50-year-old Walter Scott, who is black, multiple times from behind. Posted online soon after the incident, the video thrust the Charleston area into the national debate on race and the use of deadly force by police.

What the video didn't show is the preceding tussle during which, Slager testified, Scott had defied his orders and tried to grab the Taser he was deploying. After Scott broke free and ran away, Slager took aim and fired. Slager said he was in a state of "total fear" and believed Scott remained a threat to him, even though he was running away.

Earlier on Friday, the jurors told Newman they were deadlocked in their attempt to reach a verdict, and the judge—who had given them the option of a lesser verdict of manslaughter—sent them back to try again. Over two days of deliberations, the jury twice asked the judge for assistance. They asked for transcripts of Slager's courtroom testimony and that of the officer who interviewed Slager after the shooting. They also asked Newman to clarify the legal distinction between "fear" and "passion." The judge responded that they would have to make that determination themselves.

Many observers have taken note of the racial imbalance of the jury: six white men, five white women, and one black man. No matter which way it goes, the verdict has to be unanimous. A jury foreman's note that accompanied the letter from the holdout juror noted there was only one juror who "had issues" with convicting the officer.

A hung jury would probably be good news for Slager and his defense team. The prosecutor, 9th Circuit Solicitor Scarlett Wilson, would have to decide whether to pursue a new trial and on what charge. She announced in court that she would first want to interview jurors to gather insights before making further decisions on resolving the case. It's also possible Slager could head off a second trial by pleading to a lesser charge in exchange for a short prison stint—a manslaughter sentence in South Carolina ranges from two to thirty years without parole. But involuntary manslaughter, for instance, carries a maximum sentence of five years.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/201 ... al-verdict

There are some cases where video tape in incidents like this can on their face look damning, but are actually inconclusive in some way...(important things aren't seen, there's a bad angle, some critical event isn't included, etc.)

This isn't one of them...

Regardless of the earlier "tussle" the video clearly shows the cop firing eight times in the back of an unarmed man running away from him full tilt...(By the time he fires the final shot, the guy looks to be a good 40 feet from the officer) There's no way in hell he could have been "in fear of his life"...

Then he proceeds to handcuff the dying/dead man (no effort at all to summon any kind of medical aid) and then to top it all off, he walks all the way back to where he left the tazer, and then drops it near the victim's body in a blatant attempt to make it appear that the taser tussle and shooting occurred contemporaneously with each other, (which is clearly not the case)

In fact this attempt was so blatant that the other officer who had arrived on the scene makes him pick up the tazer...(It was also a stupid attempt as well, since the autopsy and the forensics would have revealed that the shots were fired from a much greater distance...)

All of this is captured on the video:



It is utterly bewildering to me how even one person viewing this video could feel that they have a "reasonable doubt" that the cop was acting out of a fear for his life. It just defies all commonsense...

Either Slager has got one helluva lawyer to be able to persuade even one person to buy that, or the prosecutors really screwed the pooch in the jury selection process...

I'm usually reluctant to post stories about this sort of thing, because they inevitably result in another round of generalized (and mostly unsupported) cop bashing from some folks, but this one struck me as so egregious and outrageous that I wanted to comment on it...
ImageImageImage

User avatar
BoSoxGal
Posts: 20172
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:36 pm
Location: The Heart of Red Sox Nation

Re: This Is Puzzling And Disturbing...

Post by BoSoxGal »

I'd like to say I'm surprised, but I'm not. Look at the world we live in, look at our fellow citizens, look at our new President.

In fairness to the prosecutors, void dire is a very delicate balancing act and it's quite simply a huge crap shoot even when done with great care and skill. I don't even know what the parameters are for the process in that court/jurisdiction, but even where lawyers are given broad latitude it's just an incredibly difficult thing to root out the darkness/light at the heart of a person in that limited setting.

I do agree (?) with you that it's very likely all about that juror, rather than the presentation of the case. If a truly compelling case for reasonable doubt had been made, more than one juror would have been persuaded by it. I'd posit that the lone holdout fancies herself a jury nullifier for the boys in blue.
Last edited by BoSoxGal on Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

User avatar
dales
Posts: 10922
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:13 am
Location: SF Bay Area - NORTH California - USA

Re: This Is Puzzling And Disturbing...

Post by dales »

On the other side of the coin, synchronicity.
Mourners mark 1st anniversary of Mario Woods’ killing by SF police

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


yrs,
rubato

User avatar
BoSoxGal
Posts: 20172
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:36 pm
Location: The Heart of Red Sox Nation

Re: This Is Puzzling And Disturbing...

Post by BoSoxGal »

I had to look that up, and found the article that you'd maybe meant to link:

https://www.google.com/amp/www.sfgate.c ... 688417.php

That's another really sad story and one I hadn't heard about.

At this point I'm just so terribly sad because it appears so very many of our police lack character. On some level that's the key, right? How do you get from protect & serve to so easily shooting citizens? It has to be a fundamental character thing, that we are recruiting bad people, or making them into bad people somehow in the training process. Police in the U.K. don't even carry guns and are able to deescalate knife wielding suspects all the time; are our cops just whiny pussies? Or do they just possess blood lust and a desire to kill with impunity?
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

User avatar
dales
Posts: 10922
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:13 am
Location: SF Bay Area - NORTH California - USA

Re: This Is Puzzling And Disturbing...

Post by dales »

Mario should've dropped the knife when order to do so, no?

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


yrs,
rubato

User avatar
BoSoxGal
Posts: 20172
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:36 pm
Location: The Heart of Red Sox Nation

Re: This Is Puzzling And Disturbing...

Post by BoSoxGal »

If that's the only response police are trained for, god save us all.

There are lots of reasons suspects resist many of which are nothing to do with criminal intent. Don't we care about those among us with mental health and other profound challenges? Even if he's a thug, do we really need to murder when other methods of submission haven't even been attempted?

Don't answer me; I'm not even interested in dialoguing with anyone whose response to police brutality is that.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

MGMcAnick
Posts: 1358
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:01 pm
Location: 12 NM from ICT @ 010º

Re: This Is Puzzling And Disturbing...

Post by MGMcAnick »

BoSoxGal wrote:are our cops just whiny pussies? Or do they just possess blood lust and a desire to kill with impunity?
I don't know how it is where you live, but I understand that the first question on the application for admittance to the local police academy is "Are you an A$$hole?" If the applicant answers "no", then they are directed to the second question which is "Can you learn?"

Can anyone cite three examples of police officers being convicted of killing a possible perpetrator who really wasn't? I'm sure there have been one or two somewhere, but I can't think of them.

We've had one here who shot an unarmed kid who was probably trying to hitch up his sweat pants. Yup, executed for reaching for his waist band. NO weapon was seen. The call, from his own family, said he was armed with a knife. He left the knife in the pickup truck he'd exited as the cops rolled up to the family's home. She shot him twice with a scoped rifle at a distance of 40'. Was she threatened? Of course not, but it was deemed a "clean shot" by the local D.A.'s office. Not that it would have done any good, but he laid in the snow and bled for 11 minutes before an ambulance was CALLED. Another four before it arrived.

OK, before you start, I know a few police officers on a personal level. They are all decent guys, but I also know that they could turn on a dime if they are crossed or feel belittled or threatened in any way.
A friend of Doc's, one of only two B-29 bombers still flying.

User avatar
BoSoxGal
Posts: 20172
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:36 pm
Location: The Heart of Red Sox Nation

Re: This Is Puzzling And Disturbing...

Post by BoSoxGal »

That's my impression of all the police I've been friends with over the years, too.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

Burning Petard
Posts: 4628
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 5:35 pm
Location: Near Bear, Delaware

Re: This Is Puzzling And Disturbing...

Post by Burning Petard »

Sorry to all those who are flying the 'black and blue' flag, but I think too many cops are pussies or lying killers. It seems IMNSHO, that instructions to juries now universally say it is all right for a cop to shoot a fleeing suspect, as long as the cop is really frightened. Most prominent in my mind is the instance in Oklahoma this summer where a cop investigated car stopped in the middle of the road. No other persons or traffic around and it was witnessed by a police helicopter above the incident. Yes, the driver seems to have been under the influence of some chemicals that caused him to be acting weird. But. The cop reported the guy was walking away with his back to the cop and his hands raised. At that point the cop reported "I have never been so scared in my life." And shot the guy in the back. After all, the dead guy had kept walking while the cop shouted STOP! Failure to follow instructions clearly a capital offense.

I remember when the Black Panthers were first active in California. They had a tactical policy when in a room and confronted by a group of police, to emerge stark naked, hands on top of head, walking backwards toward the cops, and it still got some of them killed.

snailgate

User avatar
dales
Posts: 10922
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:13 am
Location: SF Bay Area - NORTH California - USA

Re: This Is Puzzling And Disturbing...

Post by dales »

Don't answer me; I'm not even interested in dialoguing with anyone whose response to police brutality is that.
I suppose you're not interested in Mario stabbing someone before this incident? :shrug

eta: Perhaps this might make you re-think your attitudes towards LEO's?

http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/01/us/califo ... teen-trnd/

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


yrs,
rubato

rubato
Posts: 14245
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 10:14 pm

Re: This Is Puzzling And Disturbing...

Post by rubato »

racism


yrs,
rubato

User avatar
BoSoxGal
Posts: 20172
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:36 pm
Location: The Heart of Red Sox Nation

Re: This Is Puzzling And Disturbing...

Post by BoSoxGal »

Dales I spent several years working very closely with cops of all stripes, one do good story won't change the deep concern I have about our police state. It's to the point where I fear the police myself, and I'm not even a person of color. When I was a child I thought police were uniformly good but life has disabused me of that notion in a major way. When you've spent thousands of hours working with cops who would cheerfully separate a fellow citizen from his liberties with zero regard for constitutional protections, then come back to me with a do gooder story and tell me it convinces you the police are all good.

The new policing mentality is us v them, and you're them. It's just a matter of circumstance and even perfectly normal white Americans have had their lives ruined by overzealous policing. Quite frankly I have a lot of shame over having shilled as a prosecutor; I was naive and idealistic and throught I could make a real difference but I realize now that I gave credence to evidence and built cases around that evidence and it could quite easily have been fabricated. It wasn't until I sat in court and listened to an officer I'd trusted lie under oath without batting an eyelash - a huge lie, not a little lie - that I realized cops are just fucked up people with inherent power to fuck over other people.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

User avatar
dales
Posts: 10922
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:13 am
Location: SF Bay Area - NORTH California - USA

Re: This Is Puzzling And Disturbing...

Post by dales »

I'll bow to your "inside" knowledge of Law Enforcement.

However, there must be few decent cops around?

At least, I hope so.

Our future as a republic could depend on it.

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


yrs,
rubato

User avatar
RayThom
Posts: 8604
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:38 pm
Location: Longwood Gardens PA 19348

This Is Puzzling And Disturbing...

Post by RayThom »

And then in defense of "murder by hasty decision" there's "testilying" which backs up the misconduct and corruption in a court of law. (Scroll down to 'Prevalence')
http://what-when-how.com/police-science ... ng-police/
Image
“In a world whose absurdity appears to be so impenetrable, we simply must reach a greater degree of understanding among us, a greater sincerity.” 

MGMcAnick
Posts: 1358
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:01 pm
Location: 12 NM from ICT @ 010º

Re: This Is Puzzling And Disturbing...

Post by MGMcAnick »

Burning Petard wrote:No other persons or traffic around and it was witnessed by a police helicopter above the incident.
Are you aware that one of the guys in the chopper was the shooter-cop's husband? HE TOLD HER THAT THE GUY WAS SCARY LOOKING. Hey, he was at least 200' away, ABOVE the situation. How did HE know how scary looking the guy was?

She said that the guy she shot was reaching into his vehicle through the window. The window was later found to be closed.

She would not want me on her jury.
A friend of Doc's, one of only two B-29 bombers still flying.

User avatar
Lord Jim
Posts: 29716
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:44 pm
Location: TCTUTKHBDTMDITSAF

Re: This Is Puzzling And Disturbing...

Post by Lord Jim »

I think too many cops are pussies or lying killers.
That's a really good example of what I was talking about when I said:
I'm usually reluctant to post stories about this sort of thing, because they inevitably result in another round of generalized (and mostly unsupported) cop bashing from some folks
I see there are also plenty of other examples... :roll:
there must be few decent cops around?
Way more than a few; the vast majority actually. I've repeatedly posted statistical information supporting this fact.

Anyway, re the actual topic of this thread:

I had thought that the hold out juror was most likely a malevolent racist who deliberately got on to the jury to make sure they wouldn't convict a white cop of murdering a black man no matter how overwhelming the evidence. However, after reading the content of the note he (or she) sent to the judge, I'm thinking it may be that this is a case of somebody who is just temperamentally unsuited for sitting on a jury in a case this serious:
“I cannot in good conscience consider a guilty verdict,” the dissenting juror wrote in a letter that Circuit Court Judge Clifton Newman read out in court.

“We all struggle with the death of a man and with all that has been put before us,” the juror wrote. “I still cannot, without a reasonable doubt, convict the defendant. At the same time, my heart does not want to have to tell the Scott family that the man who killed their son, brother and father is innocent. But with the choices, I cannot and will not change my mind.”
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow ... story.html

It looks like this person really doesn't wasn't want to vote either way...

I'm certainly no expert on all the grounds that a juror can be dismissed from a jury for, (obviously, simply refusing to vote for a guilty verdict isn't one of them) but I know that "refusal to deliberate" is one of them. If the juror is even (as they said in the note) "consider" one of the verdict options, could that be considered a form of "refusal to deliberate"?

Another interesting thing about this case is that even though concerns were raised about the racial make up of the jury, (11 whites, one African American) that appears not to have been a factor. At least ten of the white jurors have voted to convict and the way this has turned out, if the jury had been made up of 11 blacks and one white, we could have the same result...

So long as this juror was the one white....
ImageImageImage

Burning Petard
Posts: 4628
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 5:35 pm
Location: Near Bear, Delaware

Re: This Is Puzzling And Disturbing...

Post by Burning Petard »

Generalize is all we can do. The last time I was pulled over by a cop, it was for making a left turn without signalling. I was in a marked left turn lane, with a green arrow light controlling my lane. I turned into an industrial park entrance, on the way to work. I did not signal because my rear light that is supposed to blink with left turn signals was burned out and I knew it. I pulled over to the shoulder of the entrance lane and got out of my car with a coffee cup in my hand and smiled at the cop. The cop generalized about my behavior and with his voice and body language communicated to me that he was very scared. I was not behaving as he expected.

Most humans have a default procedure in circumstances of potential great physical harm. The very low probability of actual harm is outweighed by the potential high cost of any harm. Even tho it is is not logical or scientifically appropriate, most people have a greater fear of crashing in a commercial passenger plane, than crashing in an auto while traveling to the airport. Generalization is what we do.

To generalize some more, the example cited here by Lord Jim is anecdotal evidence of why defense and prosecutorial lawyers both do not like to be held to a prediction of what the outcome of a jury trial may be.

snailgate

ex-khobar Andy
Posts: 5842
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2015 4:16 am
Location: Louisville KY as of July 2018

Re: This Is Puzzling And Disturbing...

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

One of the many unfortunate consequences of the polarization of society (Exhibit A - DJT vs HRC) is that it will probably be impossible anywhere to seat a jury without at least one person who will believe the police no matter what the evidence and at least one person who will believe the victim regardless of the evidence. That's what happens if we settle for fact-free campaigns.

User avatar
dales
Posts: 10922
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:13 am
Location: SF Bay Area - NORTH California - USA

Re: This Is Puzzling And Disturbing...

Post by dales »

Your first mistake was exiting your car, snail.

That's a big no-no.

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


yrs,
rubato

User avatar
Econoline
Posts: 9607
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:25 pm
Location: DeKalb, Illinois...out amidst the corn, soybeans, and Republicans

Re: This Is Puzzling And Disturbing...

Post by Econoline »

I noticed that too, Dale. I know better than to do anything in that situation other than sit still, both hands visible, and speak only when spoken to.

I also (like SG, I suspect) remember a time when this was not SOP... :shrug
People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
God @The Tweet of God

Post Reply