Belgium Bans the Burka

[Gob]

Oh, stop being so fucking reasonable. What about the Amish then eh?

[dales]

[BoSoxGal]

In Montana the Hutterites are excused from jury duty because their religious beliefs preclude them from swearing an oath to any entity other than God. I never had to deal with one as a witness, so I don't know what means the court would employ to compel testimony absent an oath; presumably a simple explanation to the jury?

[wesw]

isn t their word good enough for montana?

sheesh are they gonna make them swear on the same bible that jesus recommends not to swear in?

they could still give their word, an oath in effect, and not swear an oath....

that s just how I see it.

I m sure that the state and the hutterfields ( ) could work out a compromise.....

do we gotta send trump out there to fix this problem?

sheesh...

I need some "green corn".....

[wesw]

just for meade.....

33"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.' 33“Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.’ 33"Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.' 33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 33"Again, you have heard that it was said to our ancestors, You must not break your oath, but you must keep your oaths to the Lord.

34But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; 34But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 34"But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 34But I tell you, don't take an oath at all: either by heaven, because it is God's throne;

35or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 35or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING. 35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 35or by the earth, because it is His footstool; or by Jerusalem, because it is the city of the great King.

36And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 36And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 36"Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 36Neither should you swear by your head, because you cannot make a single hair white or black.

37All you need to say is simply 'Yes' or 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one. 37Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil. 37"But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes ' or 'No, no'; anything beyond these is of evil. 37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. 37But let your word 'yes be 'yes,' and your 'no be 'no.' Anything more than this is from the evil one.

[Bicycle Bill]

In Montana the Hutterites are excused from jury duty because their religious beliefs preclude them from swearing an oath to any entity other than God. I never had to deal with one as a witness, so I don't know what means the court would employ to compel testimony absent an oath; presumably a simple explanation to the jury?

I'm not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV, but can't one "attest" to something without actually swearing an oath (on the Bible or some other religious tract) to tell the truth "so help me God"?

-"BB"-

[Big RR]

Oh, stop being so fucking reasonable. What about the Amish then eh?

What about the amish? I can be "reasonable" about them too.

[Burning Petard]

In Delaware, one is asked only to 'attest', swearing with hand on bible is very optional. I suspect the Hutterite exemption is due to more than just swearing. Amish (at least the 'old order' in this region) do not become full members until sometime after their 18th birthday. Until they become full members, they do drive cars. Don't know about cell phones. Also they do not grow the face hair until they are married.

snailgate.

[Big RR]

In NJ, the oath is usually given as "Do you swear or affirm...", I often wondered if a witness were to say at a jury trial "I only affirm, not swear" would it affect how the jury views the testimony?

I've also been in some NJ courts that still use a bible to swear (or affirm) with your right hand on--again, if someone refused, it could affect how a jury viewed their testimony.

IMHO, limiting it to an acclamation or declaration (without a bible) should be used in all cases to avoid this, but traditions die hard.

[BoSoxGal]

I was wrong, apologies. Just chatted with a colleague and she reminded me that the peculiarity about Hutterites and jury service is that they don't serve on juries OR vote because it's part of keeping separate from the outside world. They DO have an issue with the oath when compelled to testify and they are allowed to attest rather than swear - juries are instructed to treat the testimony the same (i.e., as duly sworn and subject to perjury laws) and that the form of the oath is different because of their Constitutionally protected religious expression.

Sorry for earlier misstating the case; just thought this was an interesting example of limitations on public sphere participation due to religious belief.

[wesw]

thanks for the clarification.

[Jarlaxle]

I was under the impression that ANYONE could "affirm", up to and including the President in his oath of office.

[RayThom]

It's all optics. The christian right not only needs to hear the name of God being invoked for a "swear in" but physical proof backing up the invocation. I'm sure they think there's a special place in Hell for a nonbeliever and/or nonconformist. Powerful voodoo.

Many years ago -- early '70s -- I was a witness to a major car accident. The case went to court and I was called by the plaintiff's lawyers. At my swear in on the stand I told the judge and bailiff I was uncomfortable with the whole God and bible thing. I explained my word is my bond. The judge was unimpressed and told me to go with the sacred oath, and that it would keep me on the straight and narrow. Rather than make a scene I did what I was told fearing a contempt of court citation.

Fortunately, in today's court proceedings it has become optional if not obsolete. Hallelujah!

[Gob]

Norway is proposing a ban on the Muslim full face veil and other face-covering clothing because it says it hinders communication between pupils and teachers.
The ban, the first in Scandinavia, targets the niqab as well as burqas, balaclavas and masks, and would apply in nurseries, schools and universities.
However headscarves, hats and caps could continue to be worn.
Most parties support the bill, which is expected to pass next year.
"These clothes prevent good communication, which is important for students to receive a good education," Minister of Education and Research Torbjorn Roe Isaksen said in a statement.
Interim Minister of Immigration and Integration Per Sandberg said being able to communicate with one another was a "fundamental value".

[Big RR]

While I am unsure if communication of this sort is necessary in schools, I give the Norwegians good marks for trying to find a defensible reason to prohibit it. and I would agree in circumstances where viewing someone's face is a critical part of the communication (a witness testifying in court, e.g.) such a prohibition makes sense. In school, I'm not so sure (I recall sitting in university lectures with 100-200 other students where you couldn't even see the professor's face clearly if you sat a few rows back--I don't think a veil would be a problem there).

[Burning Petard]

Oh I only wish my wife was so beautiful that a mere glimpse of her elbow or ear would drive any man who looks her way into uncontrollable sexual madness.

This morning at Dennys in the next booth were a pair of persons in full coverup mode, all black. (eyes to mouth uncovered, only partial eyebrows visible, no chin.) After they left my wife remarked, they may call it modesty, but there was lots of pride exhibited there. At least one had lots of dark black gemstone stuff embroidered all over the upper front.

snailgate

[oldr_n_wsr]

Gotta love "shiney things".

[Guinevere]

Oh I only wish my wife was so beautiful that a mere glimpse of her elbow or ear would drive any man who looks her way into uncontrollable sexual madness.

This morning at Dennys in the next booth were a pair of persons in full coverup mode, all black. (eyes to mouth uncovered, only partial eyebrows visible, no chin.) After they left my wife remarked, they may call it modesty, but there was lots of pride exhibited there. At least one had lots of dark black gemstone stuff embroidered all over the upper front.

snailgate

It's not pride -- every girl needs a little sparkle and shine, even one dressed head to toe in black.