More alternative "medicine" quackery

[Gob]

The father of the alkaline diet, Robert O Young, is hailed as an inspiration by one of the UK's most popular food writers, Natasha Corrett, but he faces a jail sentence for practising medicine without a licence.



One patient who believed he could cure her cancer, British Army officer Naima Houder-Mohammed, paid thousands of dollars for his alkaline treatment, which consisted mainly of intravenous infusions of baking soda.

In May 2009 Naima Houder-Mohammed was commissioned as a Captain in the British Army. The following year, tragedy struck. Naima was diagnosed with breast cancer.

She received treatment and was declared cancer-free. But in 2012, while training with the army skiing team, it was discovered the cancer had returned. Her condition was so serious she was offered end-of-life care.

"She refused to accept that this was the end," recalls her friend and former fellow officer, Afzal Amin.

"Naima was a fighter. She fought to get through selection for Sandhurst. She fought through Sandhurst and she fought her way through her life in everything she dealt with - army skiing or whatever it may have been. And this for her was another fight in that long list of victories."

In one email Young sent to Naima in July 2012, he told her "there is a great need for a daily regime focused on… hyper-perfusing the blood with alkalinity". He went on: "I would suggest your healing program is going to take at least 8 - 12 weeks. It will not be easy but you will be in a controlled environment that will give you the care you need."

Naima set about raising the money she would need - in one email Young mentioned a figure of $3,000 (£2,440) per day.

Naima's family used their savings, ran fund-raising events and managed to pull together tens of thousands of pounds with the help of a charity so that Naima could be treated by Young.
But the treatment did not have the outcome she was hoping for.

Continues here...

[Burning Petard]

The conventional treatment has started end of life care. Under those conditions, what is the moral or logical error in trying anything, no matter how silly or expensive or outrageous?

snailgate

[Long Run]

Moral error is in fleecing especially vulnerable people.

[Big RR]

Fleecing? The article says

According to an invoice we obtained, she had been given 33 intravenous sodium bicarbonate drips, each charged at $550 (£448), over 31 days.

this is probably a tenth of what a hospital would have charged for a similar treatment that is just as useless. Who's doing the fleecing?

But if he was holding himself out to be an MD (or DO), he does deserve to be punished. I agree people have the right to do whatever they choose with their health, but they must know who they are dealing with.

[rubato]

Alkaline diet? Idiocy.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/food-ph-d_403.html

Product ************ Approximate pH
Abalone 6.1 - 6.5
Aloe Vera 6.1
Apples 3.3 - 3.9
Apricots 3.3 - 4.8
Apricots, canned 3.4 - 3.8
Apricots, nectar 3.8
Artichokes 5.5 - 6.0
Asparagus 6.0 - 6.7
Avocados 6.3 - 6.6
Bananas 4.5 - 5.2
Bass, sea, broiled 6.6 - 6.8
Beans 5.6 - 6.5
Beers 4.0 - 5.0
Beets 5.3 - 6.6
Beets, canned 4.9 - 5.5
Blackberries 3.9 - 4.5
Blueberries 3.1 - 3.4
Bread, white 5.0 - 6.2
Broccoli, cooked 5.3
Butter 6.1 - 6.4
Buttermilk 4.4 - 4.8
Cabbage 5.2 - 5.4
Cactus 4.7
Calamari (squid) 5.8
Capers 6
Carp 6
Carrots 5.9 - 6.3
Celery 5.7 - 6.0
Cheese 4.8 - 6.4
Cherries 3.2 - 4.5
Chili sauce 2.8 - 3.7
Cider 2.9 - 3.3
Coconut 5.5 - 7.8
Coconut milk 6.1 - 7.0
Cod liver 6.2
Corn 5.9 - 7.3
Crab meat 6.5 - 7.0
Crackers 6.5 - 8.5
Cranberry juice 2.3 - 2.5
Curry sauce 6
Cuttlefish 6.3
Dates 6.5 - 8.5
Eel 6.2
Eggs, fresh 7.6 - 8.0
Flour, wheat 5.5 - 6.5
Fruit cocktail 3.6 - 4.0
Gooseberries 2.8 - 3.1
Grapefruit 3.0 - 3.7
Grapes 3.5 - 4.5
Herring 6.1
Hominy (lye) 6.8 - 8.0
Horseradish 5.4
Jams, fruit 3.5 - 4.0
Jellies, fruit 2.8 - 3.4
Ketchup 3.9
Leeks 5.5 - 6.2
Lemons 2.2 - 2.4
Lemon juice 2.0 - 2.6
Limes 1.8 - 2.0
Lime juice 2.0 - 2.4
Mango 5.8 - 6.0
Maple syrup 4.6 - 5.5
Melons 6.0 - 6.7
Milk 6.4 - 6.8
Molasses 4.9 - 5.4
Mustard 3.5 - 6.0
Nectarines 3.9 - 4.2
Olives, green, fermented 3.6 - 3.6
Olives, black 6.0 - 7.0
Oranges 3.0 - 4.0
Oysters 5.7 - 6.2
Peaches 3.4 - 4.1
Peanut butter 6.3
Pears 3.6 - 4.0
Peas 5.8 - 6.4
Pickles, sour 3.0 - 3.4
Pickles, dill 3.2 - 3.6
Pimento 4.6 - 5.2
Plums 2.8 - 3.0
Potatoes 5.6 - 6.0
Pumpkin 4.8 - 5.2
Raspberries 3.2 - 3.6
Rhubarb 3.1 - 3.2
Salmon 6.1 - 6.3
Sardines 5.7 - 6.6
Sauerkraut 3.4 - 3.6
Sherry 3.4
Shrimp 6.8 - 7.0
Soft drinks 2.0 - 4.0
Soybean milk 7
Soy sauce 4.4 - 5.4
Spinach 5.5 - 6.8
Squash 5.0 - 5.4
Strawberries 3.0 - 3.9
Strawberry jam 3.0 - 3.4
Sweet potatoes 5.3 - 5.6
Tea 7.2
Tomatoes 4.3 - 4.9
Tomatoes, juice 4.1 - 4.6
Tomatoes, puree 4.3 - 4.5
Tuna 5.9 -6.1
Turnips 5.2 - 5.6
Vegetable juice 3.9 - 4.3
Vinegar 2.4 - 3.4
Vinegar, cider 3.1
Water, drinking 6.5 - 8.0
Watermelon 5.2 - 5.6
Wines 2.8 - 3.8
Yams cooked 5.5 - 6.8

There are food which make your urine more basic but nearly all foods are neutral or acidic as-consumed.



yrs,
rubato

[Gob]

There are food which make your urine more basic but nearly all foods are neutral or acidic as-consumed.

My urine is always pretty basic.

[Long Run]

Fleecing? The article says

According to an invoice we obtained, she had been given 33 intravenous sodium bicarbonate drips, each charged at $550 (£448), over 31 days.

this is probably a tenth of what a hospital would have charged for a similar treatment that is just as useless. Who's doing the fleecing?

WTH? What does it matter what effective treatments cost. For a completely ineffective treatment that had 0% chance of success, the con man charged $77,000, and her family used up its savings, begged for donations and received charitable dollars (that could have been used to actually help people).

[rubato]

33 x $550 = $ 18,150.00


Real money for a phony treatment. She's still going to be dead but now her family's going to be even worse off.

Throw the bastard naked into a cactus patch.

[dales]

Throw the bastard naked into a cactus patch.

Near a fire ant hill.

[BoSoxGal]

I think snake oil salespeople should be exposed, punished, and shunned.

But I also think we need to talk about death as a part of life, if we are EVER going to have functional healthcare in this country.

The vast majority of healthcare dollars are expended in the final months of human life and don't result in truly positive outcomes. Doctors don't choose that path for themselves when they are terminally ill, why do they push it on patients? And in the cases where they don't, why isn't there more resource dedicated to helping people accept terminal diagnoses? Most doctors are terrible at communicating with patients about such things, I saw that myself up close when my dear friend Linda's lovely doctor couldn't help her understand that there was no other treatment that would save her.

These things ARE hard, but necessary. I spend most of my time with terminally ill people these days and I know how hard it is for them & their families to cope, even though they're elderly and have lived full lives - so of course it's harder when a life is cut short. How terrible to spend what little time one has left chasing false hope, instead of basking in the love of family.

Sad.

[Big RR]

I've seen 90 year old people talked into bypass surgery (pretty much with the results you'd expect); I've seen people with insurable cancer still subjected to chemo or radiation that was just as useless as these treatments were (my father in law was one and it made his last days a lot worse), for a lot more money. But that's the way the medical establishment works.

IMHO, if someone chooses to pay for something that doesn't work, it's their choice. If he misrepresented himself as a physician or promised results, punish him for that, but I think people should have the ability to choose how they want to spend their money.

[Scooter]

I don't think someone just decides to try baking soda IVs for the heck of it, unless he convinced her that it was good for something, even if he didn't claim outright it out be a cure.

Let's assume there was no actual cancer treatment that would have done any good in her case. He still needs to answer for whatever false claims he made to get her money.

I get what you are saying about conventional cancer treatment, truly. I would have to weigh the potential additional survival (and its quality) very carefully before deciding to spend months of what is left on Chemo. But your oncologiist will lay out the risks and belnefits and you will decide accordingly. There's no one telling you that it's a sure cure and has no side effects.

[rubato]

Part of the reason that end of life care is so expensive is that few people have written down their wishes in an advance directive, living will, or in any form and it is psychologically too difficult for people to give instructions to end lifesaving intervention for a relative unless there were clear instructions for them to follow. No one wants to say "unplug grandma's respirator ". A good reminder to us that it is something we should do as well.

As to cancer treatment I might go either way depending on the cancer. A lot of treatments now will extend life significantly and we are getting a few more cures. Also personal circumstances matter as well. A close friend went through a 5-year course of treatment for bowel cancer and his wife and daughter were glad to have him for the extra years. His widow is now is being treated for ovarian cancer and the first round of chemo has added at least a year of health and activity. The world will be a poorer place without her and she has provided a lot of help and support for me during a dark time. If I were alone in the world at the end I might not choose treatment. But if there are people I help and support then I would have an obligation to them not to leave out of turn.

Doctors are not trained to give up and I don't think the benefit would outweigh the costs of changing that. In my experience oncologists are very candid in telling patients what to expect from either choice. With our friend they said "you have a fatal disease and what we can do is extend your life and make you more comfortable, but that's it."

yrs,
rubato

[Guinevere]

I've had doctors say to me "we aren't trained to end life, but to keep on fighting." The good ones will refer you over to the hospice care docs (who can be too much the other way -- I had several push hard to end Mom's life when she clearly was not ready --- and they were entirely wrong).

My parents both had/have advanced directives and we have all spoken about their wishes. My sister and I know what Mom wants. We knew what Dad wanted, which gave some small comfort when we did have to make the decision to turn off his vent.

But anyone who thinks any of this is easy, or thinks they have all the answers, probably hasn't been through it.

[BoSoxGal]

Did anyone say this was easy? I must have missed that post.

I've been through it now with a number of dear friends & relatives - the first time I was only 23 years old. I know it's far from easy, and I have valid opinions based in heartwrenching personal experience and extensive conversations with close friends who are physicians dealing with it every day.

Other people's opinions may differ and they are entitled to them.

[Big RR]

I don't think someone just decides to try baking soda IVs for the heck of it, unless he convinced her that it was good for something, even if he didn't claim outright it out be a cure.

Let's assume there was no actual cancer treatment that would have done any good in her case. He still needs to answer for whatever false claims he made to get her money.

I get what you are saying about conventional cancer treatment, truly. I would have to weigh the potential additional survival (and its quality) very carefully before deciding to spend months of what is left on Chemo. But your oncologiist will lay out the risks and belnefits and you will decide accordingly. There's no one telling you that it's a sure cure and has no side effects.

scooter--by all means he should be held accountable for what he did, and it deserves to be investigated. I am just reacting to the vitriol aimed at him, when many physicians might do something pretty much the same for a variety of reasons not involving the patient's well-being (from economic concerns to meeting their hospital "quotas" for procedures (we can't let the bypass OR and team go unused). At best they face civil penalties and malpractice claims, he faces jail.

As for oncologists laying out the risks and benefits, it depends on the oncologist; I have seen some that can be pretty pushy to get their way (one of my friends was even threatened with the (pretty uch nonexistent) threat of court action when he and his mother chose not to go forward with treatment. Having an advanced degree or a license does not make on infallible or any less of a jerk than they were before.

[oldr_n_wsr]

Didn't Steve McQueen go for coffee enemas when he was dieing of cancer hoping for a cure?

My mom died of cancer. In the end she/we stopped the chemo at the suggestion of her doc. Nothing was to be gained and any peace would not be found.
Morphine for ease of pain and she even had a few cocktails (she had been sober for 8 years at the time) which brought her some joy.

[rubato]

Didn't Steve McQueen go for coffee enemas when he was dieing of cancer hoping for a cure?

.

Steve McQ. went to a Mexican clinic to get Laetrile, a cyanogenic material. (It makes cyanide in your body)

yrs,
rubato

[rubato]

I've not seen anyone here say it was easy. And a lot of us have been through it.


yrs,
rubato