Yeah, This Is A Great Idea For National Security....

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Econoline
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Re: Yeah, This Is A Great Idea For National Security....

Post by Econoline »

oldr_n_wsr wrote:Yes, I am sorry that some people (less than 200 from what I heard) were inconvenienced. But over 1/4million foriegn nationals did come into the USA over the weekend without any hassles. But of course they don't make headlines nor good copy.
Over 100,000 visas have been revoked as a result of President Trump’s ban on travel from seven predominantly Muslim countries, an attorney for the government revealed in Alexandria federal court Friday.

The number came out during a hearing in a lawsuit filed by attorneys for two Yemeni brothers who arrived at Dulles International Airport last Saturday. They were coerced into giving up their legal resident visas, they argue, and quickly put on a return flight to Ethiopia.

“The number 100,000 sucked the air out of my lungs,” said Simon Sandoval-Moshenberg of the Legal Aid Justice Center, who represents the brothers.

The government attorney, Erez Reuveni from the Justice Department’s Office of Immigration Litigation, could not say how many people with visas were sent back to their home countries from Dulles in response to the travel ban. However, he did say that all people with green cards who came through the airport have been let into the United States.

For people such as the brothers, Tareq and Ammar Aqel Mohammed Aziz, who tried to enter the country over the weekend with valid visas and were sent back, the government appears to be attempting a case-by-case reprieve. They and other plaintiffs in lawsuits around the country are being offered new visas and the opportunity to come to the United States in exchange for dropping their suits.

Virginia Solicitor General Stuart Raphael said such a piecemeal approach was not sufficient, since it is not clear how many people were turned away at Dulles or other airports. The state had sought to join the suit, saying it impacted many state residents.

“There’s something very troubling about the way this is playing out,” Raphael said. “While I am pleased that they are willing to whisk people back if they come to our attention, they won’t come to our attention if we don’t know who they are.”

He said, for instance, that Virginia officials have learned that a George Mason University student from Libya is stuck in Turkey due to the ban.

Judge Leonie M. Brinkema allowed Virginia to join the Aziz brothers’ suit.

Noting that she presided over the case of 9/11 conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui, Brinkema said she had never before faced such interest in a legal dispute. Other judges dealing with lawsuits against the order around the country, she said, have told her of similar experiences.

“I have never had so much public outpouring as I’ve seen in this case,” she said. “This order touched something in the United States that I’ve never seen before. It’s amazing.”

For the order itself, she had some harsh words, though she said the president has “almost unfettered” power in the realm of borders and national security.

“It’s quite clear that not all the thought went into it that should have gone into it,” Brinkema said. “There has been chaos . . . without any kind of actual hard evidence that there is a need” to revoke visas already granted. People had relied on their visas as valid, she said; families had expected to be reunited with loved ones.

Bringing back individuals who have sued after failing to get into the country is a good step, she said, but “I don’t think it’s far enough.”

Outside the courthouse, Virginia Attorney General Mark Herring said he was “really pleased the judge recognized real harm is happening in Virginia.”

Brinkema declined to hold government officials in contempt for the way they handled travelers from the seven banned countries over the weekend, saying she did not know enough Friday to make that determination. Virginia had cited news reports and affidavits from lawmakers that, contrary to an order Brinkema issued last weekend, Customs and Border Protection officers denied immigrants access to lawyers.

“There were so many lawyers there willing to help, and not a single one got access,” Raphael said.

Reuveni said that security at Dulles bars lawyers from anything but telephone access to people in screening.

Brinkema said she would expand the order and extend it another week but has not yet released the details.
Last edited by Econoline on Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BoSoxGal
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Re: Yeah, This Is A Great Idea For National Security....

Post by BoSoxGal »

Empathy requires opening one's mind to the experiences of another, oldr. Using the word 'inconvenience' to describe what is happening to these people, many who have lived here for years others who have done everything asked of them and were ACCEPTED through a very rigorous vetting process is either ignorant or deliberately heartless.
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Sue U
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Re: Yeah, This Is A Great Idea For National Security....

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But it will all be worth it if we can prevent another Bowling Green Massacre from never happening.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Nevar Forgit: The Bowling Green Massacre.
GAH!

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Econoline
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Re: Yeah, This Is A Great Idea For National Security....

Post by Econoline »

BoSoxGal wrote:Empathy requires opening one's mind to the experiences of another, oldr. Using the word 'inconvenience' to describe what is happening to these people, many who have lived here for years others who have done everything asked of them and were ACCEPTED through a very rigorous vetting process is either ignorant or deliberately heartless.
Yes. The process has taken YEARS for many of those 100,000 people--and in the absence of ANY evidence whatsoever that the vetting they already went through was in any way defective or insufficient, making them all start all over again is just cruel.
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rubato
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Re: Yeah, This Is A Great Idea For National Security....

Post by rubato »

Econoline wrote:
  • Government reveals more than 100,000 visas revoked due to travel ban


Holy crap! 100,000 peoplel who have spent years and much of their money << successfully >> getting visas and we want to slap them this hard? Our new Republican president is recruiting for the Taliban, ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab &c what?


yrs,
rubato

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Econoline
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Re: Yeah, This Is A Great Idea For National Security....

Post by Econoline »

Sue U wrote:But it will all be worth it if we can prevent another Bowling Green Massacre from never happening.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Nevar Forgit: The Bowling Green Massacre.
It's too soon to be making jokes about the Bowling Green Massacre. Out of respect for the victims, please wait until it actually happens.
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Joe Guy
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Re: Yeah, This Is A Great Idea For National Security....

Post by Joe Guy »

The Bowling Green Massacre really hits home with me. I've never witnessed a massacre either. I know a lot of people down there are struggling to understand why it didn't happen. It's like one day everything was normal and then the next day.... normal again.

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Re: Yeah, This Is A Great Idea For National Security....

Post by datsunaholic »

Geez, even Faux News is jumping in KellyAnne Conway for the Bowling Green Massacre reference. When the Ministry of Truth is calling you out on your fake news...
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Re: Yeah, This Is A Great Idea For National Security....

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Re: Yeah, This Is A Great Idea For National Security....

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Econoline
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Re: Yeah, This Is A Great Idea For National Security....

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Re: Yeah, This Is A Great Idea For National Security....

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More unintended consequences:
Ontario to help kids whose medical treatment is affected by Trump order

Ontario is making arrangements to provide care for children from countries affected by the U.S. President Donald Trump’s travel ban who can no longer receive life-saving surgeries in America.

Health Minister Eric Hoskins said it has come to the government’s attention that some of these children are being turned away solely because of where they were born.

“We’re fortunate here in Ontario to have such high-quality pediatric specialists and hospitals so we have the technical ability to help and it seemed natural almost,” he said. “This is what Canada believes in, helping where we can, helping vulnerable children from around the world.”

Trump’s executive order — issued last Friday — temporarily bans travel for people from Iran, Iraq, Syria, Sudan, Somalia, Libya and Yemen. It also temporarily halts the U.S. refugee program.

Surgeons in the U.S. approached colleagues at the Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto and told them they had to cancel surgeries for children coming from those countries, Hoskins said.

Sick Kids then reached out to the Ontario government, which Hoskins said is working to facilitate any surgeries that can be performed here. He has also spoken to the federal government, which has indicated it is ready to help to potentially expedite visas for the children and their families, Hoskins said.

The Children’s Hospital of Eastern Ontario is also able to provide specialized pediatric care, he added.

“Given that this is a critical time for these ill children, our ministry and Ontario’s specialized children’s hospitals, which provide best-in-the-world care feel the responsibility to act quickly,” Hoskins said.

It’s not known yet how many children the support would cover, Hoskins said, but at this early stage Sick Kids has received “several” requests.

Ontario already has programs in place to provide health care on a humanitarian basis, Hoskins said.

“We do it from time to time in different ways, so we’re confident we have the ability to provide Sick Kids with whatever support they would need,” he said.

The U.S. State department could not provide numbers on exactly how many children from the seven countries might be stuck in such a situation; planning to come to the U.S. for medical treatment but prohibited from doing so during the travel and immigration ban.
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Re: Yeah, This Is A Great Idea For National Security....

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Health Minister Eric Hoskins said it has come to the government’s attention that some of these children are being turned away solely because of where they were born.

“We’re fortunate here in Ontario to have such high-quality pediatric specialists and hospitals so we have the technical ability to help and it seemed natural almost,” he said. “This is what Canada believes in, helping where we can, helping vulnerable children from around the world.”
Now that is how you troll the Trump Administration.
GAH!

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Re: Yeah, This Is A Great Idea For National Security....

Post by Guinevere »

Sue U wrote:But it will all be worth it if we can prevent another Bowling Green Massacre from never happening.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Nevar Forgit: The Bowling Green Massacre.
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Re: Yeah, This Is A Great Idea For National Security....

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Accquntable?

Vocabulary skills?

:lol:
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Re: Yeah, This Is A Great Idea For National Security....

Post by Bicycle Bill »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:Accquntable?

Vocabulary skills?

:lol:
It's probably something left over from the original text.  There's a couple other letters — like the 'e' in the word 'held' immediately preceding 'accountable', and the 'u' in 'vocabulary' — that have unexplained tails on them as well as a lot of dots (tittles from the letters 'i' and 'j' in the original?) in places where there is no reason for them to be.
Not to mention that this is supposed to be in Kentucky.  They know all about bourbons and horses there; not so much on the three Rs.

But it is getting better.  According to reports now, a majority of the state legislature *CAN* read and sign their names. :lol: .
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Re: Yeah, This Is A Great Idea For National Security....

Post by Lord Jim »

I want to address the characterization of what happened to the folks caught in Trump's cruel and gratuitous net last weekend as an "inconvenience"....

I've seen this term used by a couple of folks here, and by some of Trump's top spokespeople...(Specifically Conway, Spicer and Priebus)

An "inconvenience" is being caught in a traffic back-up driving from Reno to San Francisco, because of an accident on the highway...(something I'm very familiar with)...

While it's an "inconvenience," you are secure in the certain knowledge that eventually you will make it home...

Just like being stuck at an airport because your flight has been cancelled...(another experience I'm very familiar with...)

These people were not being "inconvenienced" in that sense...(which is probably what the average American thinks of when they see the word "inconvenienced" in relation to travel...)

What happened to these people was a lot more akin to being "kidnapped" than "inconvenienced"...

They were grabbed and held, (many of them permanent Legal Resident Green Card holders) without any warning, or any idea of when or if they would be allowed to join (or in the case of the Green Card holders rejoin) their families, or if they would be sent back to dangerous situations that they had earned the right to leave because of their co-operation with the United States government...

And then they were kept incommunicado for hours, (unable to contact family members or legal counsel) with no idea how long they would be held or what the resolution would be...

And then, finally, (no thanks to any order coming from The Administration, but because of orders from the courts) they were finally released...

Is there anyone here who would volunteer for that kind of "inconvenience"?

(And lest that sound too much like the question, "would anyone here volunteer for waterboarding?" let me remind everyone that these folks had done nothing that would even remotely indicate that they might have been engaged in, or planning terrorist attacks...)

"Inconvenience" my ass...
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Re: Yeah, This Is A Great Idea For National Security....

Post by Burning Petard »

Back to the subject of this thread, from what I have heard on radio news reports, our president's legal representatives are arguing in their appeal to the 9th circuit, that congress is just a rubber stamp for the Executive Branch; they have delegated all congressional powers to the executive, so checks and balance issues between them are moot.

Which has been my position for a long time. So sad.

snailgate.

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Lord Jim
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Re: Yeah, This Is A Great Idea For National Security....

Post by Lord Jim »

There's one way that the implementation of this EO could have been justified...

If our intelligence services had credible intel that a person or persons enroute to the United States, traveling either with a visa or Green Card from the seven targeted countries, was coming here to plan or carry out a terrorist attack...

That would have justified the "inconvenience"...

But even Lord Dampnut and his minions haven't made that claim...
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Re: Yeah, This Is A Great Idea For National Security....

Post by Bicycle Bill »

Burning Petard wrote:Back to the subject of this thread, from what I have heard on radio news reports, our president's legal representatives are arguing in their appeal to the 9th circuit, that congress is just a rubber stamp for the Executive Branch; they have delegated all congressional powers to the executive, so checks and balance issues between them are moot.

Which has been my position for a long time. So sad.

snailgate.
But just because Congress has abdicated their responsibility and allowed their system of checks and balances to erode over the years does not alter the Constitution, which clearly states that Congress *DOES* have these certain specified powers.

Question for Gob or anyone else familiar with the British way of doing things.  They also have a legislature (Parliament), and two dominant political parties (the Labour Party and the Conservative Party), but there are several other smaller parties who have representation in the House of Commons.  How do they work things so that the smaller party candidates — like the Liberal Democrats, the Green Party, or the Scottish National Party — have
1) a fighting chance to get their message out and get elected to a seat rather than be outspent and outshouted by the two major parties, and
2) the ability to get their viewpoints heard and considered once they've taken their places on the benches rather than being viewed as insignificant and totally ignored?
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