oldr_n_wsr's alcoholic adventure

[BoSoxGal]

Hey, good for you!

[oldr_n_wsr]

datsunaholic, you might want to get a pet (my preference would be a dog). this would be something that would get you up and out of bed and give you some company throughout the day and on your walks. And they love you back unconditionally.

Growing up my next door neighbor had crippling arthritis. I remember her being able to walk and in a few shorty years she was in a wheelchair with mangled fingers and such. She started breeding toy poodles (show pedegree) and many a day said they were the only reason she got up and out of bed.
Get out of your own head, it's a bad neighborhood.
Good luck and keep us posted.

[BoSoxGal]

That's a great idea - please consider rescuing an older dog from a shelter, you'll be saving two lives that way!

[datsunaholic]

I don't like dogs. I'm a cat person. However, having pets right now is not a good idea.

First, being unemployed I really can't afford it. Pets are expensive and until I'm back on my feet financially that's not a good fit.

Second, I need to keep my job prospects open. It was very difficult on my Mother to have to do the hour each way drive every day when I was deployed, or on business trips, or when I went out on cross-State trips to feed the cats and clean the litter box. Eventually I started taking them to her house, but she had to keep them separated from her cats since mine were declawed (no I did NOT do that, I just happened to adopt cats that were from happenstance) and hers are a bit more aggressive. Aside from the 2 that I got when my sister got divorced, I'd always adopted older (10+) cats with medical issues matching the one I had, so I could feed them the same food. My last one passed away last May at the age of 19, he was one of the ones I'd gotten from my sister when he was 3.

One of my job prospects is doing Point-of-Sale maintenance but it's State-wide, so I'd be away from home a lot. I've also applied for (though not gotten) positions that would occasionally require overnighting on the wrong side of the Puget Sound with little or no notice.

[oldr_n_wsr]

I saw "Bicycle Bob" last night at a meeting in Center moriches. Bicycle Bob is a guy who is permanently homeless, pretty much by his own choosing. He has been sober for over thirty years and I had not seen him in about 3 years. He used to frequent my home group meeting in coram, but then he stopped coming. He now is "living" in Riverhead but one of hte members of the Riverhead group came to the Center moriches meeting and brought Bob.
He's doing well. Still homeless but he likes it that way (so he says).

He used to be a boxer (and street fighter) and has the brain/physical damage to prove it. I wished him well and gave him some money for a meal or two.

I meet all types.

[RayThom]

I saw "Bicycle Bob" last night... He has been sober for over thirty years... He's doing well. He used to be a boxer (and street fighter) and has the brain/physical damage to prove it... Still homeless but he likes it that way (so he says)... I meet all types.

Over thirty years sober and still homeless? That's not a choice, it's the brain damage. It's nice to think he's getting by but he's certainly not a model to be followed for anyone seeking true sobriety. He's merely a dry drunk weighed down by mental illness.

On the other hand, maybe he's smart enough to know mixing alcohol with psychotropic drugs it just plain stupid. Regardless, as long as there are people willing to prop him up I suspect he'll not find much reason nor motivation to make his life any better. And why should he at this point? I wish him well.

[oldr_n_wsr]

I think he's "punch drunk". He went into DSS for help for a time, but opted for life on the streets.


Went to a beginners meeting (that I usually attend on wednesdays) and I really need to find a different meeting for wednesdays. Too many relapsers that say they don't understand how come they don't "get it". A number of us try and talk to them, impart the program, etc. But the next week or month they are back with the same lament. We try again....step and repeat....
It's a big group so there is no shortage of people with good sobriety, who have done the work, continue to do the work and have a good message.

I was a "chronic beginner" for the first two-three years I was in AA, so I understand and try not to judge where they are in the disease, but still.......

I can only keep my hand out, I can't make them grab it.

[datsunaholic]

I haven't posted in here in a while, kind of funny that I used Oldr's personal thread to describe my own issues.

Anyhow, the medication was working for a while, the doctor gave me the go ahead to up it to the full dose vs the half dose I took for 3 weeks to acclimate to it. I was having a few side effects, one of which was I got really jittery and a controllable hand tremor about 12 hours after taking it, which went away when I took the full dose. While I have no proof, I think the half dose was causing me to have withdrawal symptoms, as now on the full dose I seem to not have those effects. The other "well known" side effects either went away (like the nausea) but the other one, well, it's there. I guess it's good that I didn't have a sex life to begin with.

Everything seemed to be going well, I'd had no dives into depression, and the counseling sessions I'm still not sure about. I blather on for an hour, the counselor gives me an assignment, and repeat the next week.

But then Thursday happened.

I have this friend. She's one of my very few female friends. I can count my female friends without taking off my shoes and the unmarried ones on one hand and still have fingers left over. This one is extremely young- 20 years younger than me, and I'm an even closer friend with her father who is 20 years older than me (1954-1974-1994- really, 20 years both ways). So she's 22 and I've known her since she was 18. We all are into boat racing and music, etc. Anyhow, she's started drinking rather heavily with her new friends, got a job at a bar that's pretty much a clone of "Coyote Ugly", all stuff her family is aghast. They're a pretty conservative bunch, and she was too. Tuesday night she ended up drunk dialing me near the end of a 3-day bender where she went to a Superbowl party with 2 of her more boozy friends and got snowed in, and stayed 3 nights. We had been texting because her dad doesn't carry a phone and I was with him down at the Museum we both volunteer at until near midnight, and she'd had a blowup with her sister, her mom, her grandparents, and pretty much everyone else who sees that she is headed down a road that quickly becomes a dark tunnel. She needed a favor, which her Dad was not OK with, and so I let her know and went home. With impeccable timing she texted me back just as I got home, but the texts were getting more and more illegible and eventually she hit call instead of send so we had a nice 12-minute conversation about why she felt constrained and not treated like an adult. No slurred speech, but about a half octave high so I knew she was pretty toasted. Anyhow, I implored her to make it to school (she's at a beauty academy) the next day, as she's already risking suspension for missing classes. She says she needed to check on her friends, but would call back later, maybe after school. Never happened.

Thursday, I talk with her dad back at the Museum, she'd rolled in at 8AM, having dropped off one of her friends but she "wasn't feeling well" and slept until 2PM. School started at 8:30, so she missed the entire day because she was hungover. Then she went out to another friends that evening, had some more wine and drove home for dinner. Great- not only is she boozing on weeknights but now she's cruising for a DUI. This is a girl that less than 2 years ago implored that she didn't want to drink, needed to live clean and healthy. She already has multiple health issues with chronic pain (that no one can ID), asthma, and anxiety issues. She was highly religious, would write down scriptures to center herself. 6 moths ago is was non-alcoholic beer and wine. 4 months ago it was real wine and beer, but no hard stuff. Now she's turning into a party animal who downs an entire bottle of wine in one sitting, and her friends are feeding her Fireball by the quart. And for some reason I care too much. It happens any time one of my friends has a problem, I get all the emotional hardship and this desire to try and help, even though I cant. And I had a mini-meltdown driving home because, alone with my thoughts, I hold these difficult conversations I can't have in person, which brought me to tears. Usually it isn't a problem, but in this case it crosses a line between being a helpful friend and a creepy older guy trying to tell a cute girl what she should do.

So I wrote her a letter, but I don't think I can ever send it to her. I sure as hell can't call her, and it's not my place. Yet I can't keep out of it. When she and a mutual friend had a blowup (they went to a boat race "together" as friends, he wanted it to be as a couple, she was adamant they were just friends, she was hanging out with other guys and he got extremely jealous and stormed off) i got in the middle and told him to cool his jets. It blew over, but he still tries to woo her when she isn't interested, and being friends with both I hear it from both sides.

But it's driving me nuts. I told my counselor that maybe I had an unhealthy obsession with this girl, but my counselor just nodded and agreed that it "might" be the case. Then it became about my problem of having an attraction to "broken birds", women with more apparent issues than I have, and how that might be because it is an ego boost for me. Which is a horrific thought. I don't want to feel "better" than someone else. And to add insult to injury, when I was in the waiting room I recognized another client as an acquaintance (former girlfriend of a fellow model boat racer, she herself raced model boats with us until they split up about a year ago) who clearly has gone off the rails herself- tattoed neck, green hair... she didn't recognize me, though.

But I still have this letter and it's driving me insane.

[oldr_n_wsr]

I haven't posted in here in a while, kind of funny that I used Oldr's personal thread to describe my own issues.

Not a problem datsun-aholic. Sound off all you want. This isn't my own thread, all are welcome.

As far as the "young lady" possible alcoholic (or as I like to call them, "alcoholics in training" and I was one of them too) there is probably nothing you can do to help her. If she is a "real" alcoholic, she will not listen and will get angry/arrogant/defnsive at the suggestion that she might have a problem.
Burn the letter. I don't know what you wrote in there, but if anything it may drive her further into the bottle. Which may or may not happen anyway, but you don't need that on you either. And if you think it will help, it most likely won't for reasons I wrote about above.
If she asks for help with her addiction, point her to aa or another rehab type program. If she justs asks for help with rides home or a place to crash, or money or to intervene between her and her family, politely refuse to get involved/aid and abet.
Al-Anon calls it "Detach with Love". If you google "detach with love" there is loads of info about it.
Everyone's bottom is different and no one but that person can determine when or how far down they will go before they finally reach their bottom.


As far as your counceling/councelor is concerned, I have little to no advice on that front. I have had some councelors councel me but the best info I got was fom a person in the medical field but not a councelor (a nurse in my case). She asked the right questions that caused me to think and evaluate. She fed me the right info at the right time in the right setting and it all seemed to "click" with me.

If you don't think you are getting what you should be getting out of your sessions, maybe find a different councelor.

Keep me posted. I do care.

[RayThom]

Dat's... familiarity breeds emotional dependency and confusion.

You have way too much on your plate at this time and to be bogged down with all the addiction fueled use and abuse that surrounds you is only going to make things worse.

My suggestion is to do your best to make yourself unavailable to all these people and places that are dragging you down -- at least temporarily -- and concentrate on yourself until you're in a stronger frame of mind. Yes, they may be friends but you need to take care of yourself first. And addicted friends often tun out to be no friends at all.

Stay with the counseling -- I feel what you're hearing is very close to your reality. You're definitely on the right track there and it would be sad to find you falling back.

Best of all -- you're doing something and that means you know it's what you should be doing regardless how hard the process is for you. Good luck.

[datsunaholic]

Therein lies the problem. My depression is largely caused by loneliness. But the external triggers are caused by the people I know. I only socialize in a very small group, all of whom are associated with the museum I volunteer at. When I'm working there the problems melt away, but they all come back when I'm alone with my thoughts.

As for the letter, too late as I've already sent it. I asked her if she wanted to read it, saying it was a hard read, and she said to send it anyway. If it does more harm than good I don't know. At worse it would accelerate the path she's already on, I guess. She's said nothing since, which is not unusual, as taking 3 to 4 days to reply to things is normal for her. But you're right, of course. If someone is on the path to addiction there's really nothing anyone can say to prevent it. I know my personal addiction I'd never thought would be a problem, and there's nothing I could have told me 20 years ago that would have prevented it.

As for myself, I drug my rowboat out of the blackberry bramble, patched the holes where the outboard mount bolts had rusted out, and went for a good row yesterday. Been almost 20 years since I did that. Still alone with my thoughts but at least I got a good workout.

[oldr_n_wsr]

As they told me, "stay out of your head, it's a really bad neighborhood".
In aa we are told to work with others when our thoughts turn south. And "working with others" does not mean exclusively with other alcoholics although that is the preference. But anyone in need will suffice.

Or post here. Let it all hang out. We are anonymous here too.
My thoughts and prayers are with you.

[datsunaholic]

The problem is my counselor said to stay off the internet when I was feeling down, because it just made matters worse. You can see how well I've been following that advice. And she is right- the conversation above, where being told that me attempts to "help" are just doing more harm, actually are a depression trigger. End up feeling like shit, then don't want to get out of the house.

The problem is not having anyone to turn to, other than the crisis line.

I'm going for a walk. It's sunny and I've wasted half the day moping.

[RayThom]

Dat's, how physically fit are you? If you're as depressed as you claim I feel you may be somewhat overweight. That would make excess activity hard to get into at the start but you might want to look into it. You might want to check out some heavy duty activity to immerse yourself in. A "CrossFit"-like routine could be an answer.

I know I'd be doing more but when I can't climb a flight of stairs without getting woozy I had to switch to "Plan B" -- and by that I mean a little bit of walking at the local park, and limited pieces of exercise equipment at the local "Y" a couple times a week. I'm a regular "weak end warrior" but every little bit helps.

Of course, I have learned to live at peace with my limitations rather than constantly fighting them. I can't say exactly what will work for you but you need to decide -- sooner than later.

Just do it!

[datsunaholic]

I'm in terrible shape. 5'8" 180. That's down from 210 4 years ago, but it plateaued.

I've been walking at least 1 mile 3 times a week. I can't run or jog without getting lightheaded (my inability to run more than a 30 second sprint was the main reason I left the Navy Reserve in 2003, due to failing the 1.5 mile run portion of the physical readiness test).

My normal walk route consists of about 1.25 miles, a portion is a critical slope (200 ft elevation in 400 feet) which really gets the heart moving. But I also mix it up with walking the local parks. One is a 1.8 mile lakeshore trail (but it's flat). Yesterday I changed the routine and took my rowboat out to that same lake and rowed the shoreline. I haven't done that in decades (I had to unbury the boat from blackberries and patch a couple holes where bolts had rusted out), but came home with my rear end sore. I own lakefront property that has no current access (overgrown) but the association has a member-use park I can launch the boat from, might do that next time if my key still works.

As the weather improves there are more trails up the mountain pass I can go to. Building up stamina is the goal now. But getting out of the house is the big thing. It'd be nice if I had someone to go with, because my thoughts are still very internalized and dark, and anxiety is still a big issue. If I ever find a job that's going to cause new issues- hard to get time for workouts, counselling sessions, etc. But I'm going to run out of money eventually if this goes on much longer.

[RayThom]

Dats, you sound like you are able-bodied so that's a start. You seem capable but you need to develop your motivation. Getting rid of the "throbbing in your head" will depend heavily on your ability to channel your energy, and activity is the key.

I don't mean to sound overly cliche, nor harsh, but the weight of your future is solely on your shoulders. You can make the necessary effort to change now or you can save all of your above posts and recycle them again in five or ten years. I don't feel you want that, though.

Other than that I have nothing much more to offer you at this time. I wish you well.

[datsunaholic]

See, Ray, that's the problem. I have no motivation. All I have left is the survival instinct. What life goals I may have had were torpedoed by circumstance, impossibility of cost, or I simply decided I didn't want them anymore. They've been gone so long I don't even remember what they were. When I was a little kid, all I wanted to do was change light bulbs for a living. Not exactly a lofty goal, other than the need to be up in a cherry picker. Oh, I had fantasies, all right, but those aren't goals that can be met. My self esteem has run on empty for so long. I don't know if I ever had any, because I remember having none when I was 6 years old.

Most adult men have the motivation of being a provider- for their wife, for their children. I have none, never have, and it's highly improbable that I ever will. I never wanted children so there was never that motivation to have a relationship. Since I already had a social disorder (Schizoid Personality Disorder) it was easy, and "normal" for me to retract from social settings and make no attempts at social interaction. But it's a horribly lonely life. I never fit in with the "in" crowd, instead gravitated to those who the rest of the peer group shunned. My best friend in grade school was a late arrival, showed up in the 4th grade. His folks, I would later find out, were drug addicts and they lived in squalor even though both functioned well enough to hold normal, blue-collar jobs. We lost touch when his Mom lost her house and he moved to an apartment and I moved to Tacoma, and I've never heard from him since.

My friends in High School were exclusively those in the Music department. I got along better with teachers than other students, except the guys in Choir. I didn't date, I didn't ask girls out, I wasn't asked to the tolo, etc. The only girl I got along with was a girl in choir who hung out with me at lunch a couple times, wanted to sing duets with me in choir, but eventually she got a boyfriend and that was that. Well, until they broke up. Then we hung out at lunch again, bitched about the mean kids in school and other stuff. She got another boyfriend, and the cycle continued. We last spoke at graduation. She went to USC, stayed in SoCal, became a model/actress of no real notability, and is still at it at 43. We reconnected on facebook, same thing- bitching about the evil people in her life, even while she's trying to make a dramaticised reality show. She is, in all honestly, a hot mess.

Then there was a woman at work 11 years older than me, who asked me to go to lunch at work so we could be off campus to bitch about work, our boss, and how the other guys at work kept hitting on her. She was a vindictive one, when people didn't let her get her way she would ruin them. Of course I didn't see it at first, because she was a woman that would talk to me when so many others I was invisible at best or someone to run from at worst. Not great on the psyche. When she left, we corresponded via email for a while, maybe once or twice a year. It's been almost 3 years since our last correspondence, right after I'd lost my job.

There's a pattern there. I don't have relationships, I get used. As a sounding board more often than not. While I present myself as a loner who doesn't need interaction nothing could be further from the truth. I am immensely lonely. Yet the women I find myself attracted to are, more often than not, "broken birds" so to speak. Women who's issues make mine pale. If I'm dealing with their issues, I don't need to deal with mine, because the loneliness is gone. When I have nobody, I bury myself. I recognize toxic relationships in others, and I see that it would be very easy for me to fall into the same trap if I could ever get over the hump of not having a relationship. So is it worth it? My counselor has focused on that issue the last 2 weeks, asking what my goals are there and what the pros/cons would be for me. When I wrote the list I found a lot more tangible cons than pros. But I'm still pretty awfully lonely.

Motivation has always been a problem for me because I need structure. The Military worked for me to an extent, but as I rose in rank more problems happened because I no longer had others doing the scheduling of tasks. And putting me in charge of the scheduling was an absolute nightmare. When someone told me to do this maintenance task or stand this watch, all was well. I got my job done, usually well under the allotted time (but never, ever said so) and eventually I got the lions share of the maintenance tasks and not so much of the make-work jobs because I got the work done. When I tried to apply that to my first civilian job, it worked just as well- I had one boss and he gave out the assignments. I didn't have to come up with stuff to do to justify my existence. My next job, not so well. The company policy, as "consultants" was to find things to do to make the clients pay to keep us on site longer. I couldn't do that, and had to move on- I took a lateral move to QA, was handed a list of tests to run, and things were happy again. Until the software industry decided to move to the "agile" methodology where you don't work to a plan, there's no specification to test against or a specific goal. I couldn't work in that environment. I tried to run the tests I had, I wrote what I could by seeing how it worked and what little info I could get from the designer-developers. But I was frustrated and no longer enjoyed my job, and I did just enough to ensure I got a good severance when I was finally let go. I no longer cared.

That also meant I no longer had a place in the Software QA world. The only thing I had done in the last 15 years. The world had changed, and I hadn't changed with it.

I had one goal upon getting laid off, a goal I'd had for 10 years. That was to visit every Naval Ship Museum in the contiguous US in one trip. And I did that, minus a few that were closed, less than 2 months after losing my job. Had a blast, didn't think about the troubles that I'd left behind at home. Came home, fell into a 4 month depression where I rarely got out of bed except to feed the cats, clean their mess, and eat something. I'd go to the Museum twice a week which at least got me up. I found a new goal later, which was to finally fix the Monroe house and move. It took 16 months, but I did it. Then worked on selling the Tacoma house. Pretty much failed there, basically unloaded it to stop hemorrhaging money. Since the house was basically done, my Mom stopped coming over to help and I was back in the funk, which is not going on a year. The new goal was to find a job, but the endless stream of rejection letters, no calls, nothing just has driven me deeper. So I started counseling, but I still have no goal. I want to get better but I have nothing tangible to strive for, no structure to my environment. I keep the appointments that are made, but other than that I'm in maintenance mode, going crisis to crisis. Sure, I do some things- I take my walks or row my boat 3 times a week, I did manage to hang the kitchen cabinets, but there are other things that I need to do that aren't pressing. No one but me can make me do them, and so I don't.

So yeah, will I recycle these posts 15 years from now? I don't know. I can't look at my posts from 17 years ago when I was obsessing over the woman from work, who everyone said was a bad influence and was using me. Those posts are long gone. I have read some of my journal entries from when I was 18 years old and failing out of NNPS. Man, that kid knew NOTHING. But I can't go back and tell him where he was going wrong. It wouldn't have helped even if I could. Not because he would have ignored it, but because the system was designed to make sure kids like him didn't get put in extreme high stress situations and even today I don't know what I could have done differently. All I know is it ended in a psychiatrists office, and my career path took a sharp turn owing to the will of the US Government. A turn I'm grateful for now, but it took very little volition on my part.

[datsunaholic]

Oldr: Having read your post again. Doing nothing, saying nothing is not an option I want to take again. I watched my Sister go through something similar and it didn't lead to alcoholism, but it did lead to an emotionally abusive relationship followed by my mother having to basically raise my nephew for several years as she went "off the rails" for the better part of a decade following the destruction of that relationship. Yes, she found her way, but the emotional scars her son suffered and the lack of friends due to the constant instability are still showing effects today.

This 22 year old has big plans and a bright future if she doesn't fuck it up. She needs balance of supportive friends and family, due to the negative effects of her enabling friends. She wants to be a race boat driver, she's taken the courses and has taken a boat out for high speed training runs. If she gets a DUI, that restricts the ability to get into Canada for some of the races and likely would revoke her racing license. My brother in law was convicted of DUI a couple years ago and while my Sister hides that from her kids, it's a hardship. They went on a cruise last year, and had to stay on the boat in Victoria due to his DUI. I had a friend who was charged with felony DUI (not sure why, as he had no priors and there was no accident) but it was reduced to a gross misdemeanor. Still did jail time + community service. I know it's not my job, and maybe I shouldn't be concerned, but she trusts me, maybe in her naivety, but I have found that looking through the perspective of people from all walks of life and trying not to repeat other people's mistakes has helped me from making some mistakes of my own. It hasn't always worked- I've made a lot of mistakes too, but it has helped.

[Big RR]

Datsun--it appears you have a very keen insight into what motivates your behavior, as well as your strengths and weaknesses. It also appears you are a good friend, and while that can sometimes lead to heartache, I find it hard to see as a bad trait. I have no doubt that these traits can combine to make you happier if you let them. I have no advice for you as I have not been in your position (everyone's demons are different), but I would think if you work with your counselor it will get better. I have seen many people turn their lives around and would bet you could achieve some (or all) of your dreams and goals in the future.

[RayThom]

Dats, as mentioned by BRR you have much personal insight. Completely lucid -- I don't feel you're being irrational nor confused. If drugs are keeping you stable be sure to stay on your regimen.

On many levels I truly feel your pain. I relate so easily to your continual relationship problems. Until my marriage proposal of "you're going to have a what?" to my now ex-wife (and subsequent birth of my wonderful, loving, daughter) every one of my relationships were painful, confusing, and short lived -- none lasting more than two years. I didn't -- and still don't -- love myself so how was I going to find someone to love me?

My moment of clarity happened decades ago when I realized I am better off being alone (not lonely, mind you) rather than constantly making myself crazy trying to make a relationship work. I realized I couldn't build a firm structure without the proper tools, and the price for those tools was more than I was willing to spend. Now, not to go too deep but the root cause was insurmountable parental problems (mostly my father) during my early childhood which led to a heavy case of arrested development... and self-loathing.

I am now 68 years old and can, and do, get along with almost everyone. I am a likeable guy. However, I find people my own age -- women in particular -- as being more grand-parental, and the women I am attracted to, with very few exceptions, call me "pops." That said, years ago I put any thoughts of a meaningful relationship on hold -- probably forever. As mentioned, that was my moment and I have felt "almost" liberated since. I feel strongly I have achieved my balance. To turn a phrase "an incredible lightness of being."

OK, Dats... maybe this should be the first real step you should be taking. Get comfortable with your yourself in your aloneness -- work with it, stop fighting it -- and realize it's more societal pressure that pushes us into relationships than our own personal need for them. We are not freaks -- we merely lack the genetic component that others find so readily.

Yeah, I know, it's so simple it is complex. But you got to start somewhere. Become yourself and not what you think other expect you to be. Stay as lucid as you sound and just push yourself in new directions -- and try your best to continue counseling. You need to give voice to your feelings and once you truly hear yourself you'll be fine. And it's never too late. Trust me... I care. Ray