Immoral to build a border wall?

[liberty]

Not my words, but I agree; it is not immoral to build a border wall. In my opinion it may promote generosity towards illegal immigrants in this country. Until the border is secured the government can’t afford to be generous to illegals , because to do so would encourage more illegal immigration. I know a person who is in this country illegally and I would like her to get a green card, but I can understand why the government has not done it.

http://www.pagadiandiocese.org/tag/is-b ... christian/

Tag Archives: Is building a wall along a national border immoral or sinful or un-christian?
Educational Speaker
Is building a wall along a national border immoral or sinful or “un-Christian”?
March 14, 2016 Romeo Hontiveros
Is building a wall along a national border immoral or sinful or “un-Christian”?
By Taylor Marshall
Every medieval city or town worth its salt, had a wall around it. It’s there for security.
Some people (usually those hostile to Christianity) think that being taken advantage of is noble, but being a chump is not noble. It’s being a chump.
“But didn’t Jesus say to turn the cheek if someone strikes you?”
Yes, but that doesn’t mean that you run into fights. In fact, I avoid fights. That’s why I lock my doors, have a fence/wall around my house, have video cameras, a gate, carry a weapon, and an have an alarm on my house. I’m not crazy or paranoid. I have 9 souls under my care…and I care for them deeply.
If someone strikes the cheek of my child or wife, they will be beaten severely. That’s how real men roll. If someone strikes me for hatred of the faith, then they will be granted a prayer and the other cheek.
Immigration and Fences
Illegal immigration is a problem. Legal immigration is not a problem.
If I invite you to live in my house or spend Saturday in my backyard, then everyone is happy. That’s legal and shows good will in all the parties involved.
If I come home from work and see strangers swimming in my pool, eating food from the fridge, and sleeping in my kids’ beds, such behavior would constitute the sin of trespassing and the sin of theft. If it becomes a regular problem, then I will build a better fence and increase the security. Would you blame me? Would I be “un-Christian”?
Every family, every city, every nation has the right to defend itself and to erect walls and fences to protect the assets and the innocent.
And for those in doubt, the Second Person of Trinity endorses the idea:
“Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower.” (Mt 21:33)
Read the source & comments: http://maccabeesociety.com/is-building- ... christian/
Pope Says Building Walls Is ‘Not Christian.’ So, What Does The Bible Say About Walls?

BY: BEN SHAPIRO, FEBRUARY 19, 2016
Pope Francis said on Wednesday, “a person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian. This is not in the Gospel. As far as what you said about whether I would advise to vote or not to vote, I am not going to get involved in that. I say only that this man is not Christian if he has said things like that.”
Francis’ defenders claimed that Francis was speaking figuratively, but that’s highly unlikely; the day before, he campaigned for open borders from Ciudad Juarez, and the question that prompted this response explicitly cited Donald Trump.
So, is Francis correct? Is building walls in defense of sovereignty as “un-Christian”?
Well, let’s start with the behavior of the Vatican. As I pointed out yesterday, immigration policy to Vatican City is highly restrictive; so is security. Historically, the Vatican hasn’t been anti-wall, either. The picture above shows the giant wall surrounding Vatican City, originally erected in 852 C.E. in order to prevent another attack like the one by Muslim pirates who damaged St. Peter’s Cathedral in 846. Those walls were expanded under Pope Paul III (1534-1549), Pope Pius IV (1559-1565) and Pope Urban VIII (1623-1644). Paul III’s and Pius IV’s expansions were directed toward preventing another Muslim sack of Rome. (This Pope, it is worth noting, continues to maintain that Europe ought to increase levels of Muslim immigration into the heart of Western territory.)
Then there’s the Bible. As I’m no Christian, I’ll leave the New Testament to those better versed. I will note, however, that the Old Testament – the Tanach – is replete with references to the usefulness of walls. God allowing enemies to breach the walls of Jewish cities is seen as a brutal punishment in Deuteronomy 28:52; similarly, in Nehemiah 2:13, the prophet laments “the walls of Jerusalem, which were broken down”; Isaiah, too, laments the “day of trouble, and of treading down, and of perplexity by the Lord God of hosts in the valley of vision, breaking down the walls, and of crying to the mountains”; the same holds for Psalms 80 and 89, as well as several chapters in Lamentations, as well as the warnings of Ezekiel.
In 2 Chronicles 14, we learn of the good king Asa, who did “what was good and right in the eyes of the Lord; he “built up the fortified cities of Judah, since the land was at peace…’Let us build up these towns,’ he said to Judah, ‘and put walls around them, with towers, gates and bars. The land is still ours, because we have sought the Lord our God; we sought him and he has given us rest on every side.’ So they built and prospered.”
In Psalms 51, David specifically prays that God “do good in Thy good pleasure unto Zion; build thou the walls of Jerusalem.” In Psalm 122, David prays, “Pray for the peace of Jerusalem; ‘May those who love you be secure. May there be peace within your walls and security within your citadels.’” In Psalm 144, David prophesies that “There will be no breaching of walls, no going into captivity, no cry of distress in our streets.”
In Proverbs, Solomon writes, “He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, without walls.”
Isaiah repeatedly references walls: in chapter 26 (“In that day this song will be sung in the land of Judah: We have a strong city; God makes salvation its walls and ramparts”); chapter 49 (“See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are ever before me”); chapter 54 (“I will make your battlements of rubies, your gates of sparkling jewels, and all your walls of precious stones”); chapter 58 (“Your people will rebuild the ancient ruins and will raise up the age-old foundations; you will be called Repairer of Broken Walls, Restorer of Streets with Dwellings”); chapter 60 (“Foreigners will rebuild your walls, and their kings will serve you” and “you will call your walls Salvation and your gates Praise”); chapter 62 (I have posted watchmen on your walls, Jerusalem; they will never be silent day or night”). Amos says the same: “In that day ‘I will restore David’s fallen shelter – I will repair its broken walls and restore its ruins – an d will rebuild it as it used to be.’” So too says Micah: “The day for building walls will come, the day for extending your boundaries.”
Needless to say, God doesn’t seem particularly perturbed by the idea of walls in the Bible. They’re necessary for defense, and they’re often necessary to draw boundaries between people who live by the Living Word, and people who do not.
Suffice it to say, the Pope’s Biblical exegesis here seems rather weak.

[RayThom]

The bible will say anything you need it to say. That's why it universally endures.

Anyone who wants to use the bible to build a case against a wall will find just as much "convincing" evidence to support their efforts.

As a secular humanist I find a wall constructed in the magnitude and scope that Lord Dampnut demands is void of human dignity, and morally repugnant. Man's inhumanity to man.

God bless America.

[Joe Guy]

I think cutting and pasting cluttered and poorly formatted articles is immoral. I don't read them.

[liberty]

I think cutting and pasting cluttered and poorly formatted articles is immoral. I don't read them.

I read it but that was before I cut and pasted, but I didn’t remove anything except photos that my program couldn’t handle. And the link is there if you want to see the original article. But nothing is good enough if it doesn’t support what you want to believe. Objectivity is so hard to come by for some people.

[dales]

Suffice it to say, the Pope’s Biblical exegesis here seems rather weak.

Being a Protestant, I couldn't care less.

[Bicycle Bill]

-"BB"-

[liberty]

-"BB"-

Maybe, but all we need to counter it is a match.

[MajGenl.Meade]

The bible will say anything you need it to say. That's why it universally endures.

Anyone who wants to use the bible to build a case against a wall will find just as much "convincing" evidence to support their efforts

No it doesn't. No it isn't. And the Bible does not in any way address whether the building of a wall between the USA and Mexico is or is not immoral.

To cite the historical fact that cities had walls around them is merely proof that cities had walls around them, whether they are mentioned in the Bible or in the Q'ran or Livy or histories of England, Germany, Italy, France etc. etc.

It certainly can be argued on secular grounds alone that the wilful failure to protect one's own people is immoral. The means chosen to so protect may in itself be immoral - a wall seems to me to be an amoral solution in itself but immoral in regard to the expense of construction and the likelihood of circumvention. Shooting illegal immigrants is definitely an immoral solution. Other solutions fall somewhere between those two or thereabouts

[Burning Petard]

But our president has access to alternate facts. The rest of us have just to rely on anecdotal experience (sometimes called history) that says walls never work. The biggest of them all, the Great wall of China, did not keep out the invader. Every walled city you want to find in the bible fell to invaders.
The wall in Berlin did not work. Look up the historical background for the use of my handle--Petards, and combat engineers, my branch of military service. If all this does not take into account more recent technology, check for your self the money spent on drones for border enforcement by the USofA, and their actual accomplishment. Check on tunnels and the conflict between Palestine and Israel. Check on Tunnels and contraband coming into the USofA. ICE and Border Patrol already spend more money than all the rest of the federal law enforcement agencies combined. No wonder President Trump seeks to use unfunded local law inforcement to do the job.

The proposed wall is a moral insult to the intelligence of normal human beings.

snailgate.

[RayThom]

No it doesn't. No it isn't.

Yes, it does. Yes, it is.

The bible and its companion, the Quran, is all things to all people. It merely relies upon how well you finesse its interpretation and, in turn, repeat it to those who never read it, yet need some guidance and structure in their unfulfilled lives.

"Raise your battle cry against her on every side! She has given herself up, her pillars have fallen, Her walls have been torn down For this is the vengeance of the LORD: Take vengeance on her; As she has done to others, so do to her." Jeremiah 50:15

I have spoken. DIXI

[rubato]

we are morally responsible for the predictable consequences of our actions.


And that has always been true


yrs,
rubato

[MajGenl.Meade]

No it doesn't. No it isn't.

Yes, it does. Yes, it is.

The bible and its companion, the Quran, is all things to all people. It merely relies upon how well you finesse its interpretation and, in turn, repeat it to those who never read it, yet need some guidance and structure in their unfulfilled lives.

The Bible does not "rely" upon anything. If you mean that greedy, selfish people often purposefully misuse the Bible, then that's true. If you mean that ignorant people misquote the Bible, then that's true too. However, that is true of any text of any kind. Atheists routinely come up with total bullshit.

[rubato]

No it doesn't. No it isn't.

Yes, it does. Yes, it is.

The bible and its companion, the Quran, is all things to all people. It merely relies upon how well you finesse its interpretation and, in turn, repeat it to those who never read it, yet need some guidance and structure in their unfulfilled lives.

The Bible does not "rely" upon anything. If you mean that greedy, selfish people often purposefully misuse the Bible, [Anyone who disagrees with your interpretation] then that's true. If you mean that ignorant people misquote the Bible, [Anyone who disagrees with your interpretation]then that's true too. However, that is true of any text of any kind. Atheists routinely come up with total bullshit. [not unlike the complete bullshit of Christian theologians]

Too funny


yrs,
rubato

[MajGenl.Meade]

Yes, it does. Yes, it is.

The bible and its companion, the Quran, is all things to all people. It merely relies upon how well you finesse its interpretation and, in turn, repeat it to those who never read it, yet need some guidance and structure in their unfulfilled lives.

The Bible does not "rely" upon anything. If you mean that greedy, selfish people often purposefully misuse the Bible, [Anyone who disagrees with your interpretation] then that's true. If you mean that ignorant people misquote the Bible, [Anyone who disagrees with your interpretation]then that's true too. However, that is true of any text of any kind. Atheists routinely come up with total bullshit. [not unlike the complete bullshit of Christian theologians]

Too funny


yrs,
rubato[/quote]

I did not mention interpretation; you did. I agree with you and Ray that people misuse and misquote the Bible, just as they misuse any text or the English language for that matter. And you pour scorn upon agreement with your own position? How very peculiar.

Do you assert that people do not "misuse" the Bible? If you do, then you are either a liar or a fool.

I am fully aware that you are too cowardly to engage in any serious debate (which you will characterize as being a waste of your time - because you are of course someone who cannot allow any challenge to your worldview)

[Burning Petard]

To rubato and the Gen'l: just what is proper use of the bible?

snailgate

[Lord Jim]

you are either a liar or a fool.

Not really an either/or choice in this case...

Rube's proven himself perfectly capable of being both simultaneously...

He's an accomplished multi-tasker in this area...


ETA:

Too funny

yrs,
rubato

What is genuinely "too funny"...

Downright piss-your-pants hilarious, actually...

Is that rube really believes that he actually knows enough about this topic to have anything remotely informed or intelligent to say about it...

[Burning Petard]

The Common Lectionary gospel lesson for next Sunday is Matthew 4:1-11. This is the account of Jesus and some 'really bad hombre' together in the wilderness, having a heavy-duty discussion about the meaning of various statements in the bible. from this comes a common saying that 'even the Devil can quote scripture".

Last night president Trump quoted scripture: "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends".

It comes from the book of John, chapter 15, verse 13. I superficially checked this morning, and every English translation I looked at (more than 20) used the word friend.

Indeed, that is just what has always bothered me about this quote. It seems contrary to the main ideas that Jesus consistently pushed. That is, treating friends and family well is the attitude of most 'good' people, whatever their relationship with a personal religion. It has nothing to do with His message. Jesus consistently called his followers to do more--pray for your enemies, be kind to those who hate you, etc.

That is just a particular criticism I have for the Gospel of John, which has little supporting existence until more than 100 years after the death of Jesus.

snailgate

[MajGenl.Meade]

To rubato and the Gen'l: just what is proper use of the bible?

snailgate

I suppose rubato might mention it as something useful to stand on when reaching a higher shelf....??

The proper use of the Bible is to learn more about the Creator God, since He's been kind enough to reveal "more".