Fuck you and your heartless horrific "budget" Trumpanzee

[oldr_n_wsr]

Why is this being singled out by you?

It seems to be the topic of the thread.
And I don't like the idea of the government forcing me to buy something.

[Big RR]

I thought the thread was on the budget, of which the ACA is only a part.

And as for the government forcing you to buy something, taxation forces you to buy a lot of things, from the border wall to ICE to Gitmo to ... Is that any different?

[Long Run]

I would like to see how you arrive at the conclusion that the premium increases are due to the ACA. The plain fact is that premiums have been going up (as have deductibles and copays) every year for quite some time now. Did inclusion of more people raise premiums or did the premiums just go up as has been their history? I will not doubt that many of the ACA policy premiums have gone up, but unless you are buying those policies, you wouldn't see it (and I believe oldr stated he gets coverage through his employer and not the ACA).

TANSTAAFL. ACA added numerous benefits and mandated coverages, and it added several taxes paid through the premiums. These all cost money which gets reflected in higher premiums. I'll let the health industry economists argue, as they do, how the larger market has been impacted by the ACA.

[Sue U]

And I don't like the idea of the government forcing me to buy something.

IAnd as for the government forcing you to buy something, taxation forces you to buy a lot of things, from the border wall to ICE to Gitmo to ... Is that any different?

More personally, the government also forces you to buy auto insurance (including PIP), unemployment insurance, short-term disability insurance, long-term disability insurance, post-employment health insurance and superannuation income replacement coverage. Are you against these as well?

[Long Run]

Tax is being deferred on the deductible contribution plus investment income that is not being taxed until withdrawal. The total available to be taxed post retirement cannot be greater than the sum of those parts. If no change in pre- and post-retirement tax rate, there is still a loss because tax collected 20 years from now is worth less than tax collected 20 years ago. And the reality for most people is that their tax rate does decrease after retirement, so for most people the government will not recoup the deferred taxes even in nominal terms.

Two factors overwhelm the above. First, when measuring the present value of lost tax revenue as amounts are deferred and grow tax free, you have to account that the earnings are growing at 7%, but the government's rate is closer to 3% (i.e., the rate at which it borrows). That is, it is borrowing at 3% to get an asset back that is growing at 7%.

Second, all of the earnings get taxed at ordinary income tax rates when they are distributed. If they were taxed on an annual basis, most of the investment growth would be taxed at the much lower capital gains rate.

Further, what that article ignores is that we want and need people to save for retirement. Which is why most countries have similar laws that encourage savings. In fact, that article ignores the public policy arguments for all of the listed tax incentives, and how those policies benefit society. Plus, the article makes the irritating presumption that allowing a taxpayer to keep more of their earnings is somehow the equivalent of giving a welfare benefit (but that is a basic liberal/conservative philosophical difference which shows the writer's bent, and yes, Forbes and many other conservative sources have liberal columnists, just as the Times and Post have some conservative columnists).

[oldr_n_wsr]

From BigRR and SueU

And as for the government forcing you to buy something, taxation forces you to buy a lot of things, from the border wall to ICE to Gitmo to ... Is that any different?

More personally, the government also forces you to buy auto insurance (including PIP), unemployment insurance, short-term disability insurance, long-term disability insurance, post-employment health insurance and superannuation income replacement coverage. Are you against these as well?

Autos I can choose to buy or not buy. If I buy an auto, I then agree to the restrictions put on that auto if I want to drive it on the roads (insurance, regisration, etc)
Same with a house but most of the "must buys" on a house (homeowners and mortgage insurance) are mandated by the mortgage holder. Property taxes are the cost of living in that area/town/county/state.
Most of the other things the gov takes my earned money (aka income taxes) and divies it up as they see fit. I purchase nothing. I am forced to buy nothing. I pay taxes as the cost of living in the USA.

Soc Sec I could do better on my own with that money. But that is another arguement discussion.

Temporary "hand ups" I really don't have a problem with and I have used unemployment insurance.
I have no idea what "superannuation income replacement coverage" is so I don't have an opinion on it, but if it takes money from me, I am probably against it.

[rubato]

Why is this being singled out by you?

It seems to be the topic of the thread.
And I don't like the idea of the government forcing me to buy something.

The government forces you to buy police protection, paved roads, flood control dams, fire departments, prisons, schools, courts, water delivery systems, &c.

Health Care is as important as any of those and if you don't pay for it you will become a burden on society either through premature death, sickness, disability. Refusing to pay for it just externalizes your costs.

yrs,
rubato

[rubato]

Tax is being deferred on the deductible contribution plus investment income that is not being taxed until withdrawal. The total available to be taxed post retirement cannot be greater than the sum of those parts. If no change in pre- and post-retirement tax rate, there is still a loss because tax collected 20 years from now is worth less than tax collected 20 years ago. And the reality for most people is that their tax rate does decrease after retirement, so for most people the government will not recoup the deferred taxes even in nominal terms.

In retirement you can also time withdrawals so as to minimize any taxes. At least up until 70 1/2 when you have to start taking minimum withdrawals each year.


yrs,
rubato

[wesw]

just for the record, bsg.....


iirc...., you have wished a horrible death on more than one person.


you guys can pick on me if you want, that s what I m here for....

and I m sick too!

bonus!!!!

[BoSoxGal]

Yes, I said that the people trying to take health care from millions of Americans should have to watch someone they love suffer a terminal illness leading to death.

It's this thing called hyperbole - look it up in the dictionary.

Of course you conveniently neglect to acknowledge the further posts in which I said of course I don't actually wish anyone dead - but yes, I would have no sympathy for the suffering of people who would intentionally sentence tens of thousands of fellow citizens to unnecessary death in order to give massive tax breaks to the wealthiest people in this country.


When are you taking a leave of absence from this toxic place, anyway?

[Lord Jim]

I had a post in this space about today's vote on the Ryan healthcare bill, but since it looked like it was going to get lost in the middle of this personal discussion, I've moved it here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=17256&p=230965&hili ... ne#p230965

[wesw]

....and you also wished a horrible death on some gay conversion guy a while back.....

...and there were others.....

you got yerself a big ol beam in your eye , lass...

a big ol' beam......

[BoSoxGal]

The guy was already dead idiot. I merely said I hoped his final moments weren't peaceful. I stand by that entirely, he was responsible for the torment and deaths by suicide of countless gay people.

You think I'm the bad guy in that calculus? You're a freak.

You've been a dick to pretty much everybody here and now you want to be sanctimonious?!

Why don't you go away already?

[oldr_n_wsr]

should have to watch someone they love suffer a terminal illness leading to death.

Been there, done that, didn't get the T-Shirt.
Cousin Ricky died in 2006 at age 47 of pancreatic cancer (9 months of hell).
Cousin Skipper died in 2016 at age 58 of bladder cancer (3 years of hell).

I have more. mom, Aunt Dottie, others, all died slow and in pain and agony
But I don't wish any of that on anyone.

[BoSoxGal]

I've been there and done that many times too, oldr - I've been a hospice caregiver for a number of people now, doing the up close and personal every fucking day and not just an occasional visit and showing up at the memorial to boo hoo. For my grandmother, one of my closest friends, and several clients now who became like family before I watched them die. That's why I give a HUGE FUCK about people losing healthcare and dying needlessly, just so people with vacation homes can get a tax break. I don't agree that you don't wish it on anyone, because you support taking healthcare away from 24 million people.

forget it, I'm just putting you on ignore.

[oldr_n_wsr]

Would you please do me the kindness of putting me on your foes list and not responding to my posts?

And here I thought you put me on ignore.
I do not put anyone on ignore nor on a foe's list.

If I offend you or you think I judge you I am sorry for that. I try not to judge but not all character flaws have been resoloved so again, I am sorry.

I express my opinions and experiences as do you. They are not in alignment and I accept that.
But I will respond to any post I feel like, yours or anyones else.
Just as you do.

Yes, you're fucking perfect

Nobody is perfect, least of all me. I strive for progress, not perfection.

- except for the alcoholism and everything it robbed from your family.

And I spend every day making amends for those years. It is now my lifes work.

Judge yourself, ok?

Nobody is harder on me than me.

[BoSoxGal]

For some reason the ignore didn't work - I'll go fix it, but not before replying to this to say - you spend a lot of time in post after post patting yourself on the back for all the many ways in which you've done or are doing things right in your life.

I grew up with an alcoholic dad, oldr. I have three alcoholic siblings. I know all about the stinking thinking. I can see.

[oldr_n_wsr]

you spend a lot of time in post after post patting yourself on the back for all the many ways in which you've done or are doing things right in your life.

Thank you for that. Sometimes I wonder if I am doing things "correctly".
But I can see from your post I need to try and be more humble.
Progress, not perfection.

[BoSoxGal]

Sorry oldr, I'd accidentally put you & wesw in my friends list instead of foes list - but have now corrected that. If you're going to keep flinging poop at me it's all for your own satisfaction. Buh-bye!

[wesw]

don t bet the snowmobile on it.........