Maybe it's time to try something else...

All things philosophical, related to belief and / or religions of any and all sorts.
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RayThom
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Maybe it's time to try something else...

Post by RayThom »

Whose prayer is the best and the strongest of the Big Three? At the moment it appears that the Jihadist's prayers to Allah are being heard the most.

Growing up, as a young catholic lad, I observed that those who were on their knees (preferably a hard, uncomfortable, surface,) fingering the rosary, wearing a scapular, and eliciting some sort of vocal noise, were the more prone to a beatific experience. I suspect the frenetic movement of the beads is what gets God's attention, and has a lot to do with it.

However, to improve your prayer's accuracy here's a companion piece you may want to consider:
http://www.tscpulpitseries.org/english/ ... ixrea.html

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Econoline
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Re: Maybe it's time to try something else...

Post by Econoline »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:Still no rational defense offered for "this is not working".
It's not that prayer is "not working" — I don't even know *HOW* prayer would "work" if it "was working", and I doubt whether anyone else does, either.

But what's *REALLY* "not working" here is Twitter hashtags. Obviously.
People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
God @The Tweet of God

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Re: Maybe it's time to try something else...

Post by MGMcAnick »

BoSoxGal wrote:God helps those who help themselves - so maybe we need to do more than pray?
Of course you know that's not in The Bible, right?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helps ... themselves

RAYThOM wrote:
"... You cannot petition the lord with prayer... "
Of course we can, and should at every opportunity.
See
Ezra 8:23
Daniel 9:3
Daniel 9:17
Philippians 4:6
1st Timothy 2:1
Hebrews 5:7

Hey, it can't hurt.
A friend of Doc's, one of only two B-29 bombers still flying.

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Maybe it's time to try something else...

Post by BoSoxGal »

I knew it wasn't an actual verse, but it's a variant on verses within the Bible, for sure.

It's a core principle of New England Puritanism.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

Big RR
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Re: Maybe it's time to try something else...

Post by Big RR »

I also recall reading that proverbs 13:4 "The soul of the sluggard desireth, and hath nothing: but the soul of the diligent shall be made fat." was likely the basis of this phrase, although it certainly can be disputed.

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Re: Maybe it's time to try something else...

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

God helps the helpless! Isaiah 25:4 declares, "For You have been a defense for the helpless, a defense for the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shade from the heat..." Romans 5:6 tells us, "For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly."
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

wesw
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Re: Maybe it's time to try something else...

Post by wesw »

I have found that the Lord s Prayer pretty much encompasses all of life.

that jesus fellow was pretty sharp......

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RayThom
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Maybe it's time to try something else...

Post by RayThom »

wesw wrote:I have found that the Lord s Prayer pretty much encompasses all of life... that jesus fellow was pretty sharp...
I'm curious, did jesus recite the Lord s Prayer at the last supper?
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Bicycle Bill
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Re: Maybe it's time to try something else...

Post by Bicycle Bill »

RayThom wrote:
wesw wrote:I have found that the Lord s Prayer pretty much encompasses all of life... that jesus fellow was pretty sharp...
I'm curious, did jesus recite the Lord s Prayer at the last supper?
Jesus and his disciples were practicing Jews, and I've always been of the impression that the 'Last Supper' was a Passover Seder, so the normal ritual prayers ("Baruch Ata Ado-nai Elo-heinu Melech Haolam Hamotzi Lechem Min Ha’Aretz....") and traditions were undoubtedly recited and followed.

With a few additions (see Matt 26:26-30), of course.
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oldr_n_wsr
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Re: Maybe it's time to try something else...

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

I'm sure you don't think that but isn't it the logical meaning of "maybe it's time to try something else because this isn't working"?
Ever consider that maybe the prayers are working (even a little) and that it could be (or could have been) much worse?
just a question not necessarily what I believe :shrug

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Maybe it's time to try something else...

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

RayThom wrote:
wesw wrote:I have found that the Lord s Prayer pretty much encompasses all of life... that jesus fellow was pretty sharp...
I'm curious, did jesus recite the Lord s Prayer at the last supper?
No need to be curious - just read the gospels (and you'll find that he did not).
:ok
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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RayThom
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Re: Maybe it's time to try something else...

Post by RayThom »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:... No need to be curious - just read the gospels (and you'll find that he did not).
:ok
Thanks, I'll get right on that.
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Scooter
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Re: Maybe it's time to try something else...

Post by Scooter »

How many people who recite the Lord's Prayer are sincere about seeking forgiveness for their trespasses against others, or about forgiving the trespasses of others against them? 1%? 0.1%?
"The dildo of consequence rarely comes lubed." -- Eileen Rose

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Maybe it's time to try something else...

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

It's something I've wondered. I can't recall more than a few times I've felt "trespassed against". Perhaps many years ago when we got a new boss who announced that we'd be gone a long time before him. He was wrong. But even when I'm upset about something (and that's usually on the phone), I'm careful to always tell whoever I'm talking to that I'm not angry with them even if I sound angry.

My guess is that 100% of Christians forgive those who trespass; but maybe not 100% of the time - the rest of 'em are not Christians after all :shock:
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Scooter
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Re: Maybe it's time to try something else...

Post by Scooter »

GOP Congressman: God Will ‘Take Care Of’ Climate Change If It Exists

Rep. Tim Walberg (R-Mich.) told a constituent last week that God can solve the problem of climate change if the global phenomenon truly exists.

The 66-year-old Republican, who is a climate change skeptic, made the remark at a town hall in Coldwater, Michigan, on Friday.

“I believe there’s climate change,” Walberg said, according to a video of the exchange obtained by HuffPost. “I believe there’s been climate change since the beginning of time. I believe there are cycles. Do I think man has some impact? Yeah, of course. Can man change the entire universe? No.”

“Why do I believe that?” he went on. “Well, as a Christian, I believe that there is a creator in God who is much bigger than us. And I’m confident that, if there’s a real problem, he can take care of it.”
"The dildo of consequence rarely comes lubed." -- Eileen Rose

Big RR
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Re: Maybe it's time to try something else...

Post by Big RR »

My guess is that 100% of Christians forgive those who trespass; but maybe not 100% of the time - the rest of 'em are not Christians after all :shock:
I don't know about that Meade; I would think 100% of Christians try to forgive those trespassing against them, but many times they fall short. Whether it's the guy who cuts you off on the road or someone who has really done something seriously wrong to you, the forgiveness does not always readily come, although it should. Indeed, forgiveness is one of the hardest virtues to practice regularly. I am reminded about a story a number of years back where a young drunk driver killed a man's daughter; not only did he forgive the young man, he went to court and testified that he didn't want to see the drunk driver go to jail so that two lives would be ruined--instead he urged counseling and an extended license suspension (which the court adopted). forgiveness like that is very difficult to muster (I honestly can't say I would do the same), but it is what christians are called upon to do.

oldr_n_wsr
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Re: Maybe it's time to try something else...

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

How many people who recite the Lord's Prayer are sincere about seeking forgiveness for their trespasses against others, or about forgiving the trespasses of others against them?
I recite the Lords prayer pretty much every day (most meetings end with it).
I try to forgive any tresspasses against me, but being human and no where near perfect, I come up short (and always will). That doesn't mean I shouldn't bother, it means I need to work harder at it.
And I try and live the 10th step.
Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

Whether or not someone forgives me for my tresspasses is not up to me. I can and must, as muchas possible, "right the wrong". If they forgive me great, if not, at least I did my part.
My higher power, I hope, forgives me. But not knowing their mind, who knows. :shrug

I was not always this way, but happy I am now

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no "religion" needed.
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Re: Maybe it's time to try something else...

Post by Burning Petard »

The idea that the 'Last Supper' was a seder and followed traditions known today is very shaky. Most of those seder traditions observed today cannot be traced back any further than the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple by Rome. The 'traditions' of the Ashkenazi and the Sephardi are also very different.

Me, I like to begin my discussions of the Lord's prayer with its introduction 'go into your closet' Hard to reconcile that with prayers at the beginning of Nascar races and political gatherings.

But back to the opening of this thread. There is wise theological advice credited to many sources: Begin always with prayer, but never stop there.

snailgate

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Maybe it's time to try something else...

Post by BoSoxGal »

The most incredible act of forgiveness I ever saw involved a youth I represented while I was with the public defender; at 15 he forcibly raped his 12 year old cousin in a camper while the family was all gathered at the homestead ranch for annual bird hunting. The 12 year old was so traumatized she developed conversion disorder which left her wheelchair bound for many months afterward. Her parents asked to meet privately with my client and his parents prior to sentencing (he'd pled guilty and I crafted a suitable plea agreement with the state). I attended the meeting to sit in a corner and protect my clients interests; it was all I could do to keep from weeping as I watched my client's uncle gently confront him and offer full forgiveness.

I always wonder about that kid, because he'd already molested other younger kids prior to that incident and it had been handled informally ( :shock: ) by youth probation in his tiny Montana town; our plea agreement required that he go to a residential sex offender program for youth and remain under supervision until age 21. He was the only client I had in my time as a defender who truly seemed to be a budding sociopath, which was clearest to me in watching his completely emotionless response to that reconciliation meeting with his parents and aunt & uncle.

However, statistically youth are the only sex offenders who actually benefit markedly from sex offender treatment; for most adult offenders it's just a hoop the department of corrections makes them go through to achieve release or relaxed probation and often the failure to complete successfully is used as a reason to require a longer period of incarceration instead of allowing such offenders to utilize early release options.

I'm wandering a bit off topic, but this brings to mind something I read yesterday, about how Scott Glenn still has nightmares from the things he saw and heard while visiting the FBI behavioral unit at Quantico to prepare for his role in Silence of the Lambs; he says he's never seen the world in the same way since. That's definitely my experience after my years practicing criminal law. I wish I'd known how much it would damage my psyche before I tread down that path, because the body keeps the score of vicarious trauma just as it does of direct trauma.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

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Re: Maybe it's time to try something else...

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Big RR wrote:
My guess is that 100% of Christians forgive those who trespass; but maybe not 100% of the time - the rest of 'em are not Christians after all :shock:
I don't know about that Meade; I would think 100% of Christians try to forgive those trespassing against them, but many times they fall short. Whether it's the guy who cuts you off on the road or someone who has really done something seriously wrong to you, the forgiveness does not always readily come, although it should. Indeed, forgiveness is one of the hardest virtues to practice regularly. I am reminded about a story a number of years back where a young drunk driver killed a man's daughter; not only did he forgive the young man, he went to court and testified that he didn't want to see the drunk driver go to jail so that two lives would be ruined--instead he urged counseling and an extended license suspension (which the court adopted). forgiveness like that is very difficult to muster (I honestly can't say I would do the same), but it is what christians are called upon to do.
1. Well, that's what I said... all true Christians (100% of them) do forgive others for hurting them.... but not 100% of the time. I think we agree. oldr said it well.

B. We cannot forgive people for hurting other people. Only for hurting us. So "the man" had no right to forgive the drunk driver for anything except depriving himself of his daughter - if that's what he did, fine. Same goes for BSG's " my client's uncle gently confront him and offer full forgiveness." He can't forgive the rapist of the rape; only of upsetting the uncle.

And that part of the prayer is (in any case) exactly the same as "judge not for by the measure you judge so shall you be judged". i.e. Forgive me as I forgive other people. If I don't, then I'm not forgiven either. So those who do not forgive (on their own behalf, not some spurious offer on behalf of a real victim) are begging to not be forgiven - hence, proving themselves not Christians anyway.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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