Retaliation?

[Lord Jim]

If so, it's still inexcusable. There are reportedly children among the injured:

London mosque attack: Vehicle mows through pedestrians

A VAN has reportedly mown down pedestrians near London’s Finsbury Park Mosque. A massive police response is underway.

Metropolitan Police say they are attending a ’major incident’ at Seven Sisters Road, with responders including riot vans, armed personnel and a helicopter.

Initial reports suggest more than 10 people have been hit.

A spokesperson for the Metropolitan Police said officers were called at 12.20am.

"Officers are on the scene with other emergency services," he said. "There are a number of casualties being worked on at the scene. There has been one person arrested. Enquiries continue."

There are unconfirmed reports of fatalities. London Ambulance reports it has sent ’a number’ of resources to the Seven Sisters Road ’incident’.

Unconfirmed reports from the scene suggest that up to three people may have been killed.

Eyewitnesses have told LBC radio that the van approached "slowly and intentionally accelerated into crowded cafe outside a mosque", according to The Sun.

It is also being reported but not confirmed that the people hit were leaving the mosque after Tarawih prayers performed for the Islamic holy month of Ramadan.

Finsbury Park Mosque has been known to have served as a clearing house for radical Muslims after cleric Abu Hamza arrived as imam in 1997.

Al Qaeda operatives including "shoebomber" Richard Reid and Zacarias Moussaoui attended the mosque.

in 2003 the Mosque was raided by the Police and shut down. It was then reclaimed in 2005 by the local Muslim community with the help of the Muslim Association of Britain (MAB).

Hamza, known as the Hook Hand, is an Egyptian cleric who preached Islamic fundamentalism and militant Islamism from the London mosque until he was arrested in 2004 after a US request to extradite him to face terrorism charges.

He was later charged by British authorities with sixteen offences for inciting violence and racial hatred. In 2006, a British court found him guilty of inciting violence, and sentenced him to seven years’ imprisonment.

On 5 October 2012, after an eight-year legal battle, he was extradited from the UK to the US to face terrorism charges and on 14 April 2014 his trial began in New York. On 19 May 2014, Hamza was found guilty of eleven terrorism charges by a federal jury in Manhattan. On 9 January 2015, he was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/london- ... 549211c173

[RayThom]

It appears to be.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... osque.html

It's really getting ugly out there. Can a 21st century redux of the Crusades be far away?

[Lord Jim]

If this is in fact some sort of Anti-Muslim vigilante retaliation attack, then the ones who will be celebrating are the radical Jihadists...

This is precisely the sort of reaction they hope to provoke to advance their strategic objective of polarizing Muslim and non-Muslim communities in the West...

This kind of thing plays right into their hands...

If this is what it is, then what's really needed is for the non-Muslim British communities, (Christians, Jews, Atheists, whatever) to rise to come to the aid of the victims of the attack, and to condemn the attack unequivocally, and to demonstrate solidarity in opposition to the attack (Just as many British Muslims did in the aftermath of the wave of Islamist terrorist attacks that have struck the UK)

[BoSoxGal]

Sadly we live in a twisted world and I'm betting this attack won't see the same media as the ones where lots of white Christians & secular humanists are killed.

Just like the media barely covers the many stories of mass killings of Muslims all over the Arab world.

[ex-khobar Andy]

It seems that it is getting the same sort of press coverage; and it was clear from the overage of the Grenfell Tower fire that many of the families were grateful for the immediate and effective help from their Muslim neighbors. LJ is exactly right - and Plan A for terrorists for the last hundred years has been to promote a reaction from those they are seeking to terrorize. It makes recruiting so much easier.

[Guinevere]

No, it's not retaliation, it's terrorism.

ETA - "still" inexcusable? WTF. As if behavior like this could ever be justified.

ETA2 - LJ - to clarify - I don't think you believe this behavior is justified, but using language like "retaliation" and "still inexcusable" are part of the normalization of these horrific acts that I strongly believe should be avoided by every right-thinking human.

[Guinevere]

More terrorism - a 17-year-old girl walking home from a mosque in an abaya, murdered -- possibly by being beaten with a baseball bat -- in Fairfax County, VA:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/fa ... nes&wpmm=1

[Burning Petard]

Yes, I am exaggerating, responding irrationally, failing to take into account background information, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

A 17 year old girl was beaten to death with an aluminum baseball bat because our president has, by word and deed, given fake Christians permission to do it.

No man is an island. I live in Bear, Delaware, but this dead girl is MY NEIGHBOR. I take this very personally. I do not appreciate the anger and violence this actions stirs in me.

snailgate

[Lord Jim]

LJ - to clarify - I don't think you believe this behavior is justified

I should certainly hope not, since "inexcusable" means pretty much the exact opposite of "justified":

Definition of inexcusable

: impossible to excuse or justify

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/inexcusable

it's not retaliation, it's terrorism.

Unlike "inexcusable" and "justified" those two are not mutually exclusive concepts...

I have no problem characterizing this as a terrorist attack. (Ideologically motivated attacks on innocent civilians is are always terrorist attacks, and they are never "justified" no matter what the attacker imagines their "justification" to be.) Given the recent history in the UK, it may also be intended as retaliation.

[Lord Jim]

A 17 year old girl was beaten to death with an aluminum baseball bat because our president has, by word and deed, given fake Christians permission to do it.

Well, attacks against innocent Muslims (and people being mistaken for Muslims, like Sikhs) have been happening in this country since 9/11, long pre-dating The Rise Of Trump...

Gee, I hope my pointing that fact out doesn't make me a "Trump fan"...if anyone thinks it does, I direct them to my sig-line...)

[Guinevere]

It's the "still" that bothers me. As if there is some situation, such as retaliation, when it *is* justified.

[Guinevere]

A 17 year old girl was beaten to death with an aluminum baseball bat because our president has, by word and deed, given fake Christians permission to do it.

Well, attacks against innocent Muslims (and people being mistaken for Muslims, like Sikhs) have been happening in this country since 9/11, long pre-dating The Rise Of Trump...

Gee, I hope my pointing that fact out doesn't make me a "Trump fan"...if anyone thinks it does, I direct them to my sig-line...)

No you're no Trump fan, but I wonder if the number or frequency of attacks has increased. Certainly the hate has become more open and apparently more accepted by many (no, not you).

[Guinevere]

Snail - we are all humans. That makes us all connected and related.

In Massachusetts when we are in court, the lawyers refer to each other not as "Counsel," or "Mr or Ms" or "Attorney X", but as Brother and Sister. I used to think it was a quaint little practice (we never did that in Maryland or DC), but more and more I appreciate the notion that even though we are participating in a form of combat, we are still connected and more importantly, related, by our responsibilities to the court system, the process, and the Constitutions of the US and Massachusetts.

[Lord Jim]

It's the "still" that bothers me. As if there is some situation, such as retaliation, when it *is* justified.

Maybe what we've got here is just a miscommunication...

My intent in using the word "still", was to convey the meaning "no matter what the imagined motivation is, it's still inexcusable"....

Not to say there were "some" circumstances where targeting innocent people for attack would somehow be "justified"...

I wonder if the number or frequency of attacks has increased.

That's certainly a valid question, and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the answer to it is "yes". Trump has certainly repeatedly spoken and acted in ways that provide support and validation for anti-Muslim prejudice, and has conversely been quiet or very slow with responses to anti-Muslim attacks that take place in the US.

(The White House eventually released a statement condemning the knife attacks in Portland, but Trump had none of his famous tweets about it; thus far I don't think there's been any response about the Fairfax County attack.)

[Lord Jim]

After thoroughly reading through the WaPo article about the Virginia attack, there are some questions I think that need to be answered....

On Sunday, police found the girl’s remains and a 22-year-old man has been charged with murder in connection with the case.

The mosque, the All Dulles Area Muslim Society (ADAMS) in Sterling, and relatives identified the girl as 17-year-old Nabra Hassanen of Reston.

Fairfax County police identified the man charged with murder in her death as Darwin Martinez Torres of Sterling. On Monday, they did not release any explanation as to why they weren’t investigating the murder as a hate crime.

According to accounts from police and a mosque official, a group of four or five teens were walking back from breakfast at IHOP early Sunday when they were confronted by a motorist. All but one of the teens ran to the mosque, where the group reported that the girl had been left behind, according to Deputy Aleksandra Kowalski, a spokeswoman for the Loudoun County Sheriff’s Office.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/fa ... nes&wpmm=1

The closeness in their ages, the fact that she didn't take off when he showed up, and the fact that the police are not investigating this as a hate crime, all lead me to ask the question of whether or not she may have known the guy, in which case the motive could have been something personal (rather than an anti-Muslim attack.)

Maybe they knew each other and he was obsessed with her, maybe he had come on to her and she rebuffed him...

(None of which of course would in any way justify or mitigate what he did. If this guy is in fact the culprit he murdered an innocent young woman in cold blood; in my view he deserves the DP for that, no matter what his motive may have been)

All I'm saying is that there are some missing pieces, and based on some of the facts that are publicly known, there are some other potential motives (besides an anti-Muslim attack) that need to be eliminated.

[ex-khobar Andy]

From the Beeb re the Seven Sisters Road incident:

White supremacists have celebrated the attack, according to the US extremist monitoring group Site. It also said pro-Islamic State channels were using reports of the incident to incite Muslims.

[Scooter]

And while we're at it, let's shoehorn a reference to Abu Hamza who was banned from the mosque over a decade ago.

[ex-khobar Andy]

For those in the US I will quote Wikipedia:

"White van man" is a stereotype used in the United Kingdom for a smaller-sized commercial van driver,[1] perceived as selfish, inconsiderate, mostly petit bourgeois and aggressive.[2] According to this stereotype, the "white van man" is an independent tradesperson, such as a plumber or locksmith, self-employed, or running a small enterprise,[2] for whom driving a commercial vehicle is not the main line of business, as it is for a professional freight-driver.[3]

There are 'white van man' jokes - I suppose it's a meme, which may go some way to explaining (not excusing) the Daily Mail's use of the term.

[BoSoxGal]

And while we're at it, let's shoehorn a reference to Abu Hamza who was banned from the mosque over a decade ago.

I'm shocked I tell you; just shocked.

[Bicycle Bill]

For those in the US I will quote Wikipedia:

"White van man" is a stereotype used in the United Kingdom for a smaller-sized commercial van driver,[1] perceived as selfish, inconsiderate, mostly petit bourgeois and aggressive.[2] According to this stereotype, the "white van man" is an independent tradesperson, such as a plumber or locksmith, self-employed, or running a small enterprise,[2] for whom driving a commercial vehicle is not the main line of business, as it is for a professional freight-driver.[3]

In other words, a British version of the classic American redneck with his beer-branded, mesh-bodied, 'one-size-fits-all' trucker's cap and his big-assed, jacked-up, pimped-out, four-wheel-drive pick'em-up truck.  The major difference appears to be that the 'white van man' may actually be employed and use his vehicle for work-related activities rather than just 'rolling coal' or hauling an oversized fishing boat around.

-"BB"-