Stephen Hawking sees danger

[RayThom]

Nothing defines the sport better than the brave hunter's wall mounted trophy.

[Big RR]

BSG--for the record, I am not saying a vegan diet is an inherently bad one--many people get proper nutrition eating only a vegan diet; all I am saying is that it does take a little thought and extra effort to locate the appropriate foods to get the essential nutrients, and I think a lot of education would be needed to teach people how to do this. Again, I would bet many Americans, even fairly educated ones, would have significant problems getting all of their essential nutrients from a vegan diet. For those willing to invest the time to learn, it's a perfectly fine diet.

As for amino acids from plants, as I recall, herbivores (like many of our food animals) are capable of digesting plant cells to extract the amino acids in a way we are not; it's no impossible for us to get the same, but it is nowhere near as easy.

[BoSoxGal]

BSG--for the record, I am not saying a vegan diet is an inherently bad one--many people get proper nutrition eating only a vegan diet; all I am saying is that it does take a little thought and extra effort to locate the appropriate foods to get the essential nutrients, and I think a lot of education would be needed to teach people how to do this. Again, I would bet many Americans, even fairly educated ones, would have significant problems getting all of their essential nutrients from a vegan diet. For those willing to invest the time to learn, it's a perfectly fine diet.

As for amino acids from plants, as I recall, herbivores (like many of our food animals) are capable of digesting plant cells to extract the amino acids in a way we are not; it's no impossible for us to get the same, but it is nowhere near as easy.

With all due respect, you're very wrong about this. It takes very little effort at all, and doesn't require a great deal of education at all. The assertions you are making are all very, very out of date. Most meat and dairy eaters are getting WAY more protein than the human body needs, which is a big reason for kidney and liver disease and is also implicated in cancer and various other chronic illnesses. Eating properly on a plant based diet is SUPER EASY - and because for tens of thousands of years as hunter/gatherers, we MOSTLY gathered (meat was scarce), our bodies are actually biologically geared toward a plant based diet and it fosters optimum health. We are, again, frugivores.

Seriously, you may not believe me, but since you're only a lawyer and not a nutritionist or medical doctor, I'd encourage you to go watch Forks Over Knives and see if you believe the many medical doctors who have been advocating this diet - and studying the adherents to it - for over 5 decades. You might find yourself motivated to consider a lifestyle change that will preserve your heart health and give you many years with your grandchildren.

[Big RR]

Again, I'm not disputing anything you said, but in a country where people voted for Donald Trump, think medicare is not government involvement in healthcare, and any number of other unbelievable things, I do not think most people would be able to achieve adequate nutrition on a vegan diet without some significant education. Add to that the fact that fresh fruits and vegetables are not available to many (and there have been many studies which show this by trained nutritionists). Certainly we can live quite well eating only plant life, and in a world where food it scarce in many places it makes ecological sense to eat the producers, and not the food that eats the plants), but it is not simple as I understand it. I am also aware of the debate as to what the human diet was previously, and some very good arguments are made for why we should be eating far more vegetable matter.

As for diets causing diseases, much of what I have read has been more an indictment of processed foods than meats alone. Things like high glucose corn syrup are linked to many of the conditions you have referred to, as well chronic diseases such as diabetes and other autoimmune disorders. We get far too many unnatural additives with our foods, and a simple cutting back on them is a first step to better health IMHO (and a far easier one than radically changing your diet).
there are many dietary things we can do to foster good health, and it behooves us all to take the time to study alternatives and choose the one best for each of us. In any event, a diet higher in fruits and grains and lower in meats and fats would probably benefit most of us.

[BoSoxGal]

You should educate yourself then - because it IS simple. All that stuff about having to combine certain foods at every meal, etc. that you are no doubt thinking of was all WRONG, and the new nutritional science of the past 5 decades proves it.

But go ahead and argue, argue, argue despite having zero formal training in the subject and clearly having not read anything published in the past 3 decades about the subject of plant based diets and their health outcomes.

Yes, food deserts are an issue but that is entirely a man made, corporate driven phenomenon and easily rectified. They fly dairy and beef to the most remote locations on earth, they could certainly fly grains and fruits/veggies just as easily. It's a matter of will and corporate interests, and nothing more.

As for people who make excuses about why they can't give up dairy and meat - it's not one bit about valid science, it's about choosing to make one's body sick and participate in an eternal Treblinka with the animals as victims (credit to Isaac Bashevis Singer).

Please, Big RR, before you come back at me with one more false argument predicated on faulty science, try reading any of the physicians I've referenced or watching any of the dozen documentaries available on Amazon, Hulu and Netflix that interview those same physicians and set forth the exhaustively researched science that proves you are, simply, full of poopy.

By the way, if the body building link I posted wasn't sufficient (and there are many other world class athletes who are vegan) perhaps it would interest you to know that Serena and Venus Williams are nearly 100% raw food vegans - with occasional sushi indulgences outside of the competitive tennis season.

[BoSoxGal]

I didn't even get to your second paragraph, but again - you need to greatly expand your reading. Yes, processed foods and added sugars are awful for your body. But so too are meats and dairy - again, watch Forks Over Knives and then come back and talk to me if you still have an argument to the contrary. The China Study, studies of Scandinavian populations during war rationing when meat and dairy were nearly nonexistent, all show that populations who eat meat and dairy have VASTLY higher rates of cancer, heart disease, hypertension, diabetes, and erectile dysfunction (which is an early warning sign for heart disease - the canary in the coal mine, in fact).

Vegetables, fruits, legumes, whole grains, nuts and seeds - they provide every macro and micro nutrient humans need for optimal health and longevity, and it doesn't require complicated weights and measures or calculations to achieve. For that matter, every person with a smartphone can download any of dozens of apps that will calculate their nutritional profile for every single meal with a few finger flicks.

It isn't hard. At all.

[Big RR]

Not hard, but we all now that the internet is full of both good and bad information--and sometimes it is hard to tell which is which.

If I get a chance, I will try to look at the film.

[MajGenl.Meade]

And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food."

Genesis 1:29

Then sin entered the world by Adam's choice and death entered the world and.... man started to eat animals.

Once again, the Bible is (of course) utterly mistaken and not at all to be taken seriously.

[Big RR]

Of course 1:30 did say "And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so."

But we know there are animals who are carnivores and do not/cannot eat "green herbs" for sustenance. So it is difficult to say the verses are 100% accurate unless either carnivores did not exist in the Garden (but if not, why not? and why did the verse say all animals on the earth) or their systems underwent a change outside of the garden.

Whether the story is to be taken seriously or not, I leave to you. But I think it is far more allegorical than factual.

[BoSoxGal]

Not hard, but we all now that the internet is full of both good and bad information--and sometimes it is hard to tell which is which.

If I get a chance, I will try to look at the film.

I didn't get my information from the internet, I got it from a half dozen medical doctors and biochemists who have written books on the subject based on decades of peer reviewed scientific research studies, and from documentary films which draw from those same sources. The internet only came into play insofar as every one of those medical doctors have websites that promote their plans and provide cookbooks and such to assist folks, and some of them also have centers where you can go and get an immersion experience to jumpstart the transition - because it does require breaking a lifetime of terrible toxic eating habits which are ingrained in our culture. Some of those inpatient programs are now Medicaid/Medicare and private insurance reimbursable, because they are proven to reverse heart disease, diabetes and a host of other illnesses and the cost of the programs is a fraction of the cost of open heart surgeries and lifelong medicated followup care. Pritikin & McDougall are both covered by insurance.

If you're really interested, check out the China Study: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study as it's the gold standard of evidence based science that proves humans are far healthier on a plant based diet with minimal amounts of vegetable oils - it's written by a leading biochemist and his physician son.

Forks Over Knives is just an entertaining way to get the information in an abbreviated format for short attention spans so it's a great tool to educate people out of all the brainwashing they've had thanks to the meat and dairy industries and their lobbying efforts within the USDA, FDA, etc.

Here's the trailer:

It's available on both Netflix & Amazon.

Here's the Forks Over Knives extended interviews (probably less entertaining because it's just really smart doctors and biochemists and nutritionists talking without all the graphics):

[Big RR]

I never said you got your information over the internet; you have shown yourself to be fairly diligent at researching your positions and I am sure this is not different. I was referring to your citing of apps which can calculate "nutritional profiles"; no doubt good ones exist, but so do not so good ones, and often it is tough to know which is which.

[BoSoxGal]

Oh yeah, I agree with that, I'm sure there are some that aren't terribly good. And there is a lot of fad 'healthy' diet information online so I thought maybe that's what you meant.

I used to believe exactly as you do and that's why I'm so excited to share what I've learned. I think MANY people, besides being addicted to the meat/dairy we've been raised on and which is pushed on us by Big Food so Big Pharma can sells us pills for the last half (or more) of our lives, have the same misconception that it's hard to get proper nutrition eating vegan. And to be honest some vegans eat potato chips bread pasta and soda and they aren't healthy - you MUST eat the bounty of the garden & the orchard, and the grains must be whole, unrefined. Like you would eat if you were Homo sapiens 10,000 years ago, foraging right from the Garden.

Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food. ~ Hippocrates

eta: If I'm defensive it's because part of me is really fricking angry that when I wanted to go vegan at age 22, my physician at the time urged me not to because she also was totally uneducated about nutrition and human biochemistry as relates to diet. Most medical schools teach zero about nutrition, and many doctors are clueless. Even though I was very, very troubled about the ethics of eating animals then, I talked myself out of it because I trusted my doctor - I should have researched for myself and not blindly trusted her. I feel stupid and very sad about all the suffering I've been a party to, and now that 25 years later my body is ravaged by chronic illness, I'm very frustrated to realize that there is a very high likelihood that if I'd been a vegan all those years my body wouldn't have gotten so sick - MS sufferers are greatly improving their health by diet alone, and some have even gone into full remission for years. It's also very likely that had I not been ingesting large quantities of extra estrogen via meat and dairy consumption, I wouldn't have developed a massive tumor on my ovary and had to lose my ability to bear children AND be forced into very early menopause as a result of losing 1 & 1/3 of my ovaries. I also likely would never have developed gallbladder disease on a plant based diet - so had I been encouraged to follow my compassion at the time when my body was still very healthy despite a diet heavy in animal products, I might have avoided three surgeries and the significant medical costs associated.

[BoSoxGal]

On the subject of nutritional calculations - it really is as simple as, if you eat vegetables, fruits, nuts/seeds, whole grains and legumes - ideally some of each every day, don't go crazy with the nuts & seeds but eat as many veggies as you want and be sure to get your calories because these are nutrient dense but low calorie foods - you'll get all the nutrients you need. Broccoli has more protein than meat, and kale, spinach, collard greens and sesame seeds have more calcium than milk. Pregnant women and kids will need some B vitimin supplementing but that's achieved by a chewable daily multivitamin, or using nutritional yeast, which is an excellent substitute for cheese.

And besides making your body feel fabulous, you can stop participating in animal suffering and also be taking a step toward saving the planet . . . though I agree with Hawking, it's probably just too late at this point.

[Big RR]

though I agree with Hawking, it's probably just too late at this point.

Sadly, that's been my position for some time as well. But I do think the planet has a number of ways to still "save" itself; unfortunately, they do not include us.

[RayThom]

In general, modern-day vegetarians are as healthy as their meat-eating counterparts and actually have lower rates of heart disease."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/th ... -need-meat

So you know, I truly enjoy a tossed green salad with tuna, walnuts, and sunflower seeds on a regular basis -- maybe three times a week. Regardless, I'll take a tasty hamburger, or bacon club, or a nicely prepared medium sirloin steak over nuts and berries any day.

My BMI is an almost a constant 22.5, and I have a Body Fat % of 18.35 so my diet obviously keeps me within very healthy ranges so dying of diabetes, cardiovascular disease, or cancer is less likely. With my sarcoidosis death will most likely be pulmonary related.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Of course 1:30 did say "And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so."

But we know there are animals who are carnivores and do not/cannot eat "green herbs" for sustenance. So it is difficult to say the verses are 100% accurate unless either carnivores did not exist in the Garden (but if not, why not? and why did the verse say all animals on the earth) or their systems underwent a change outside of the garden.

Whether the story is to be taken seriously or not, I leave to you. But I think it is far more allegorical than factual.

Ah, you discount evolution then? Well, neither one of us was around when all the animals were eating green herbs so we didn't get to see how they adapted their eating habits after death (a necessary precondition for eating meat) entered the picture.

[Big RR]

Somehow the thought of a lion grazing just doesn't seem right.

[rubato]

My family are Seventh-Day-Adventists a majority of whom are vegetarians who consume dairy and eggs. The remainder eat less meat than the average person. And you have to respect the results; most of them live into the late 90s early 100s. My youngest great auntie died at 104, my dad's sister passed away at 96, her husband at 98. One grandmother died at 103, my grandfather at 98.

I haven't seen data that veganism, which is a little extreme, is better than vegetarianism. Certainly some of their prohibitions have nothing to do with diet or health and everything to do with religious beliefs about the moral status of animals: "Vegans, in addition to being vegetarian, do not use other animal products and by-products such as eggs, dairy products, honey, leather, fur, silk, wool, cosmetics, and soaps derived from animal products."

You do have to know more about diet and nutrition to be a vegetarian and unless you grew up in a vegetarian home you'll need to learn new recipes and cooking techniques to make tasty meals. It takes time and effort. Fortunately there are a lot more veg. cookbooks now. Deborah Madison (a UCSC alum!) has a number of highly regarded veg cookbooks.

there was a study a while back that showed fish eaters have lower rates of blood cancer than vegetarians but similar cancer rates overall:
https://www.theguardian.com/science/200 ... -diet-risk

yrs,
rubato

[rubato]

Somehow the thought of a lion grazing just doesn't seem right.

One has to wonder why an omniscient being gave a vegetarian long sharp canines and carnassial teeth.


yrs,
rubato

[MajGenl.Meade]

Somehow the thought of a lion grazing just doesn't seem right.

One has to wonder why an omniscient being gave a vegetarian long sharp canines and carnassial teeth.


yrs,
rubato

One must wonder how an accidental process gave teeth to anything at all?

(Yeah - PS: I know carnivores of the pussycat species were around before humans. One must wonder at the unused sense of humor to which some humans are habitually oblivious).