The cams should be automatically on from start of callout to end of callout, with zero access to the video by police. They should be accessible to prosecutors and civilian police boards only. The police can't be trusted - there are too many brutes & sociopaths and many more who are willing to be silent about them. Police reform NOW!
"Being black" is not probable cause
Re: "Being black" is not probable cause
Apparently they've only been using their bodycams 4% of the time!
The cams should be automatically on from start of callout to end of callout, with zero access to the video by police. They should be accessible to prosecutors and civilian police boards only. The police can't be trusted - there are too many brutes & sociopaths and many more who are willing to be silent about them. Police reform NOW!
The cams should be automatically on from start of callout to end of callout, with zero access to the video by police. They should be accessible to prosecutors and civilian police boards only. The police can't be trusted - there are too many brutes & sociopaths and many more who are willing to be silent about them. Police reform NOW!
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan
~ Carl Sagan
Re: "Being black" is not probable cause
BoSoxGal wrote: I wonder how many civilians the cops in Australia kill every year?

http://theconversation.com/shoot-to-kil ... alia-34578
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
"Being black" is not probable cause
PIKERS!

“In a world whose absurdity appears to be so impenetrable, we simply must reach a greater degree of understanding among us, a greater sincerity.”
Re: "Being black" is not probable cause
Aussie police aren't known for their shooting skills...
Re: "Being black" is not probable cause
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan
~ Carl Sagan
- Bicycle Bill
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Re: "Being black" is not probable cause
How many of these were persons actually involved in committing a crime and were shot by police to end a crime, or were shot by police because they displayed a weapon or otherwise presented a threat to LEOs after the fact, as opposed to police shootings of an unarmed civilian?BoSoxGal wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng- ... s-database
US cops killed 1093 citizens in 2016.
-"BB"-
Yes, I suppose I could agree with you ... but then we'd both be wrong, wouldn't we?
Re: "Being black" is not probable cause
The Guardian is collecting the stories of the police involved shootings - which aren't tracked by the FBI or any other agency, how fucked up is that?! - so you can read and judge for yourself. I've read some and they don't seem terribly justified on their face to me, and we've seen many publicized cases where the 'justification' was shockingly thin.
We have a REAL problem with our policing in this country, it's not a few bad apples, it's a systemic problem with how police are trained these days and how quick they are to shoot civilians. It's sickening.
I'm a white middle aged woman who worked with police for more than a decade and I don't trust them anymore. When I see a police car I feel a mix of fear and revulsion - and I was raised with blind deference to authority by my retired military father who worked as a prison guard and I have a brother who is a detective, so that's some idea of how far my personal/professional experiences and what I've seen in dozens of real cases I've followed since law school where police brutality or fabrication of evidence or failure to properly investigate or coercion of false confessions have gutted the respect I once had for our system. Our system is a vile mess that victimizes millions and gets by with a bullshit veneer of being 'the greatest ever devised by man' - what a joke.
We have a REAL problem with our policing in this country, it's not a few bad apples, it's a systemic problem with how police are trained these days and how quick they are to shoot civilians. It's sickening.
I'm a white middle aged woman who worked with police for more than a decade and I don't trust them anymore. When I see a police car I feel a mix of fear and revulsion - and I was raised with blind deference to authority by my retired military father who worked as a prison guard and I have a brother who is a detective, so that's some idea of how far my personal/professional experiences and what I've seen in dozens of real cases I've followed since law school where police brutality or fabrication of evidence or failure to properly investigate or coercion of false confessions have gutted the respect I once had for our system. Our system is a vile mess that victimizes millions and gets by with a bullshit veneer of being 'the greatest ever devised by man' - what a joke.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan
~ Carl Sagan
- Econoline
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Re: "Being black" is not probable cause
The data from Australia also includes "justified" as well as "unjustified" police shootings...though I doubt there were very many (if any) "unjustified" "police shootings of an unarmed civilian" included in the overall total of *14* police shootings. (For the record, the population of Australia is 24.6 million and the population of the US is 326.6 million: 13 times the population and 78 times the police shootings.)Bicycle Bill wrote:How many of these were persons actually involved in committing a crime and were shot by police to end a crime, or were shot by police because they displayed a weapon or otherwise presented a threat to LEOs after the fact, as opposed to police shootings of an unarmed civilian?BoSoxGal wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng- ... s-database
US cops killed 1093 citizens in 2016.
People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
— God @The Tweet of God
— God @The Tweet of God
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ex-khobar Andy
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Re: "Being black" is not probable cause
That 14 is over a four year period while the 1093 is one year's total for the US, based on the data quoted in this thread. So the factor is ((1093/14) / (326.6/24.6) X 4) = 24 (approx - don't have calculator handy). I.e., on a per capita basis you are 24 times more likely to be bumped off by a cop in the USA than you are in Oz.For the record, the population of Australia is 24.6 million and the population of the US is 326.6 million: 13 times the population and 78 times the police shootings.
Edited to correct formatting of quote.
Last edited by ex-khobar Andy on Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: "Being black" is not probable cause
The population of Australia is roughly that of NJ, and NJ had 14 shootings in 2016 (from a Washington post link that would not copy for me). Assuming 2016 is not that odd a year for NJ, I would say it is likely NJ has 3-4 times the number of police shootings as Australia. then again, given the prevalence of gun use among inner city gangs, and the number of such inner cities in NJ vs Australia (I haven't been to Australia, but I haven't heard of rampant drug related violence), I would have guessed it would be far worse.
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Burning Petard
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Re: "Being black" is not probable cause
The police/shooter in this case before us had been on the job about 2 years. The police/driver about one year. I predict the investigation will show:
1. More training is needed.
2. The dead woman had a cell phone in her hand. The shooter thought it was a weapon and feared his life was threatened.
3. The shooter will be back on the street with legal permit to kill (the badge) in less than 90 days. Perhaps not with the same police organization.
I have no idea what it will take to shake legitimacy from the heads of jurors for the defense that "I am a cop. I was scared. So of course I had to kill them."
snailgate
1. More training is needed.
2. The dead woman had a cell phone in her hand. The shooter thought it was a weapon and feared his life was threatened.
3. The shooter will be back on the street with legal permit to kill (the badge) in less than 90 days. Perhaps not with the same police organization.
I have no idea what it will take to shake legitimacy from the heads of jurors for the defense that "I am a cop. I was scared. So of course I had to kill them."
snailgate
Re: "Being black" is not probable cause
The worst part being...if his partner doesn't flip on him, the murdered might walk. Someone on another forum posted exactly how he could do it, and damn if I didn't agree with him.BoSoxGal wrote:I read about this, it's beyond comprehension. It will be sickening to see what kind of story the po-po fabricate about this murder.
Apparently this very nice lady was about to be married to an American, and had lived here for a few years. She was very well liked and apparently was known to have commented to friends and family many times how much nicer it was in Australia where the people aren't all carrying guns.
I wonder how many civilians the cops in Australia kill every year?
Treat Gaza like Carthage.
Re: "Being black" is not probable cause
Today the news is reporting that the partner was 'stunned' by the shooting - so it appears in this case there may be justice.
Color me cynical, but I notice it's more common for black police to be successfully prosecuted in these abuse of force cases than it is white police. I'm sure it's only a coincidence.
Color me cynical, but I notice it's more common for black police to be successfully prosecuted in these abuse of force cases than it is white police. I'm sure it's only a coincidence.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan
~ Carl Sagan
Re: "Being black" is not probable cause
The Aussie figures are from 2008 to 2011.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
- Bicycle Bill
- Posts: 9823
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Re: "Being black" is not probable cause
You're sitting behind the wheel of your patrol vehicle talking to (or about to talk to) someone through the window when suddenly, from less than four feet away, someone fires a gun with the bullet passing within inches of you? Or perhaps extends their arm so the weapon is directly in front of your face and then pulls the trigger? I don't think 'stunned' even begins to scratch the surface of the emotions that I would have been feeling in such a situation.BoSoxGal wrote:Today the news is reporting that the partner was 'stunned' by the shooting - so it appears in this case there may be justice.
Another significant question — significant to me, anyway — that remains as-yet unanswered is why the weapon was out of its holster and ready for action in the first place. Or are we to assume that the officer channeled his inner 'Quick-Draw McGraw' and managed to bring out his sidearm, chamber a round, release the safety, aim, and fire, all while seated within the confines of a patrol car?
The incident is under outside investigation by the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension (BCA). Latest information being released now reports that according to a statement given by Officer Matthew Harrity (the officer in the driver's seat) he was 'startled by a loud noise' seconds before his partner, Officer Mohamed Noor, fired the fatal shot. Noor has dummied up (and of course, lawyered up) and as of yet has issued no statement, more than likely upon the advice of his attorney. Minneapolis Mayor Betsy Hodges, in a statement to press following the release of this information by the BCA, noted that police officers cannot be compelled to testify in an outside investigation. With no other known witnesses other than the victim (and of course, dead women can tell no tales), no further interviews are scheduled, although the usual request — you know, "If there is anyone else who was in the area and witnessed this or can provide additional information they are urged to come forward" — has been issued.
Although I did find it interesting that according to information obtained by Minneapolis TV station KSTP the officer who fired the fatal shot has been on the force for barely a year, graduating from the police academy in May of 2016, and has already had three complaints lodged against him. One of the complaints was dismissed without disciplinary action; the other two are still open (and under Minnesota state law details of open cases or cases that result in no discipline are not released), so while rumors and innuendoes will no doubt run rampant — especially given the officer's name and point of origin — no further definitive information is likely to forthcoming any time soon.
This whole thing stinks to high heaven. I'll bet you even now the Mipple City police force are praying, holding seances, and possibly even sacrificing virgins in the hopes that something catastrophic happens someplace else and draws the public's attention away from this incident so that the investigations, etc. can sputter along for a couple of years before the matter finally dies and its obituary appears on page 6 of the third section of the Pioneer Press.
-"BB"-
Yes, I suppose I could agree with you ... but then we'd both be wrong, wouldn't we?
Re: "Being black" is not probable cause
Latest news indicates he's told friends (still no official statement), that he was startled by a loud noise and shot her as she was running toward the police vehicle in the dark with an unidentified object (cell phone) in her hand.
As far as I know, it's always been standard policy for police to issue a verbal warning before discharging a weapon (stop, police!), except under clear circumstances of imminent thread of serious bodily injury/death. Considering that this woman had already mentioned to friends/family numerous times her concerns about weapons and shootings in the US, I can't imagine she wouldn't have stopped dead in her tracks if he'd shouted "stop, police" at her.
So fucking unbelievably unnecessary!
And this just underscores the feeling that many citizens now have, that the police aren't there to help us, we must fear them; even white middle aged women must be in fear of them, as if that makes a difference - NO citizen regardless of color, creed, gender should be in fear of those who allegedly protect and serve!
As far as I know, it's always been standard policy for police to issue a verbal warning before discharging a weapon (stop, police!), except under clear circumstances of imminent thread of serious bodily injury/death. Considering that this woman had already mentioned to friends/family numerous times her concerns about weapons and shootings in the US, I can't imagine she wouldn't have stopped dead in her tracks if he'd shouted "stop, police" at her.
So fucking unbelievably unnecessary!
And this just underscores the feeling that many citizens now have, that the police aren't there to help us, we must fear them; even white middle aged women must be in fear of them, as if that makes a difference - NO citizen regardless of color, creed, gender should be in fear of those who allegedly protect and serve!
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan
~ Carl Sagan
"Being black" is not probable cause
The new crowd chant: "Pajamas On... Don't Shoot"

“In a world whose absurdity appears to be so impenetrable, we simply must reach a greater degree of understanding among us, a greater sincerity.”
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Burning Petard
- Posts: 4627
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Re: "Being black" is not probable cause
Now the Chief of Police has been fired by the mayor.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... rs-request
I am beginning to think that the shooter/policeman is gonna be thrown under the bus to cover up systemic problems. He is a refugee from East Africa, the land of ISIS and clearly not a real 'mericun. The victim of the shooting is a nice female blond who spoke with a fashionable Aussie accent. Fire the boss, now try him for murder, then all the other questionable activities of the prosecutor and the city cops can be papered over.
snailgate
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... rs-request
I am beginning to think that the shooter/policeman is gonna be thrown under the bus to cover up systemic problems. He is a refugee from East Africa, the land of ISIS and clearly not a real 'mericun. The victim of the shooting is a nice female blond who spoke with a fashionable Aussie accent. Fire the boss, now try him for murder, then all the other questionable activities of the prosecutor and the city cops can be papered over.
snailgate
Re: "Being black" is not probable cause
The killer is either terrified of his own shadow, totally incompetent, or (most likely) both.
Treat Gaza like Carthage.
Re: "Being black" is not probable cause
New signs going up in the area of the manslaughter:


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan
~ Carl Sagan