thestoat wrote:oldr - I think that is pretty spot on
While I may be called a hippocrit, as we did bring up our children up in the Catholic faith (baptised, communion, confirmation) even though we were not practicing (although during thier upbringing we did go to chuch every sunday). I deem myself an agnostic so I did try to get them to think logically (Spock anyone?) and make their own decisions. My wife calls herself catholic although she is a non-practicing catholic (guess she has it down perfect and doesn't need to practice anymore )The kids were exposed to the major religions throughout their upbringing as good friends of ours are jewish, lutheran (as was my grandfather) and episcapalian (sp?) not to mention a few devote athiests. I have not asked them what their "tendencies" towards religion are as at 21 and 25, I figure it's their business. They are good people so I don't think they need any kind of religion to help them along.
dgs49 wrote:Logic and rational thought compel the conclusion that the earth and the universe were created by an intelligent being (or beings) - which is why that has been the predominant belief since the beginning of recorded history.
The theory that the universe (and terrestrial life) simply came into existence as a result of random natural events and causes extrapolated over a virtually infinite period of time is, logically speaking, utterly ridiculous.
Though possibly true.
A 4-year-old?
God, definitely.
The fact that something has been the predominant belief throughout history should not count as evidence. If it does then there is strong evidence to show that black people are inferior to white people and that women are inferior to men.
Logic and rational thought involves taking the evidence, testing it and drawing conclusions... not blindly believing something because your elders told you it was true.
A rational mind will ask: "How does that happen?" and "Why does that happen?".
A closed mind will say "God did it".
Why is it that when Miley Cyrus gets naked and licks a hammer it's 'art' and 'edgy' but when I do it I'm 'drunk' and 'banned from the hardware store'?
dgs49 wrote:Logic and rational thought compel the conclusion that the earth and the universe were created by an intelligent being (or beings) - which is why that has been the predominant belief since the beginning of recorded history.
... "
Ignorance, slavish conformity, and a lack of imagination compel a belief in creation.
If I had kids, which thankfully I do not, I would not want anything as important as their religious indoctrination, or lack thereof, to be anyone's responsibility but mine. Of course I likely would not be sending them to a religious school unless I was prepared for religion to be part of the curriculum. Which I wouldn't want.
Well, in the US, pubic schools have to remain secular and I believe the legal reasons for reading the bible are: as a historical or philosophical text.
In the Stoat's case, I might be concerned since the C of E is mostly dogmatic indoctrination, and not spiritual development.
However, the good news is: most children's impressions of religion and faith come from their parents; what you teach them will have more meaning, than most anything said by the outside world. So saying, if you choose not to teach them, then what's said and heard in the outside world will be their education on the subject.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
dgs49 wrote:Logic and rational thought compel the conclusion that the earth and the universe were created by an intelligent being (or beings) - which is why that has been the predominant belief since the beginning of recorded history.
Irrational belief flying in the face of rational thought compel the conclusion that the earth and the universe were created by an intelligent being (or beings) - which is why it has always been essential for the proponents of that irrational belief to impress it upon defenseless young minds.
Until recently, it had been the predominant belief since the beginning of recorded history that the Sun goes around the Earth. We outgrew it. It remains the predominant, though far less so than previously belief that the universe is ruled by a God whose alleged existence cannot be substantiated, whose alleged attributes are a muddle of self-contradictory and paradoxical gibberish, and whose alleged behavior is diametrically opposed to its alleged attributes. We will outgrow that too.
It may well be that there is a God and that that God did create the Earth and everything else. And it may well be that we will someday develop a mature conception of such a God. But that will not happen until we extricate ourselves entirely from the infantile and infantilizing mire out of which we have barely begun to poke our nostrils.
Reason is valuable only when it performs against the wordless physical background of the universe.
If there is a God, and if that God is even similar to the God described in the Judeo-Christian tradition(s), then my ignorance of that God is that God's fault, not mine. If that God punishes people for not believing in Him/Her/It on the basis of collections of stories that do not commend themselves to belief any more than do the many extant similar collections in other traditions, then that God is evil. Indeed, if that God punishes anyone for anything, then that God's having created those people in the first place was an act of the most purely unforgivable malice.
It may that such a God exists. If He/She/It does exist, then the universe is a wretched place to which no one, no matter the awfulness of her or his conduct, can possibly deserve to condemned. And if that God had even the tiniest shred of compassion, He/She/It would unmake the whole thing.
Reason is valuable only when it performs against the wordless physical background of the universe.
oldr_n_wsr wrote:Given a choice (aka free will) I choose not to be "unmade"
... but would you know you had been unmade?? If you suddenly ceased to exist you'd be in the same state as before you were born - oblivious to everything, so would it actually matter to you? I sense a philosophical debate here ...
If a man speaks in the forest and there are no women around to hear is he still wrong?
)The kids were exposed to the major religions throughout their upbringing as good friends of ours are jewish, lutheran (as was my grandfather) and episcapalian (sp?) not to mention a few devote athiests. I have not asked them what their "tendencies" towards religion are as at 21 and 25, I figure it's their business. They are good people so I don't think they need any kind of religion to help them along.
'preciate it.
