Charlottesville

[Big RR]

Good questions:

In the first case my answer (I am not sure who "we" is) would be it depends on what is said--a call to bomb a particular site at a particular time would be one thing, usual spewing of hatred and suggestions of violence quite another.

In the second, of course, but aiding and abetting are fairly well settled in the law as doing something material and proximal to the commission of the crime, aren't they?

The third is a tougher one, and I would say it depends on what is being taught--saying take radioactive material and place it in a canister with an explosive is quite different from giving step by step instructions on how to create a fission bomb; one merely states the obvious, the other is much more of a problem. I have an old book at home called the Anarchist's Cookbook, and it was legally published; it contained information on how to make a variety of explosives and bobs, IEDs, etc., but was pretty simplistic in its approach (if you put a can of nails near the black powder you can get more damage--that sort of thing).

Again, I am not saying there may not be some speech which can be regulated--the law clearly permits that. But I am very cautious when it comes to making any further limitations on what can be said politically. Face it, we now live in a country where people (even US citizens) can be arrested without charge and held for years, even decades without any access to the courts. A country where a president can order the execution of a US citizen without any trial. I am not about to be sanguine about giving up any further rights to a government which would be happy to trample them.
a

[Sue U]

Theory and principle is all well and good, but given what we've seen in real life I think there are legitimate public safety grounds for banning the use or display of shields, torches, weapons and weapon-like objects at these kinds of events. It seems apparent that having them on hand simply encourages physical confrontation and violent behavior; you don't bring things like these unless you're planning to use them.

[Lord Jim]

you don't bring things like these unless you're planning to use them.

Well, to play devil's advocate on that point...

You might bring things like that, not because you actually plan to use them but to look scary and intimidating, and/or because the views you're expressing are so incendiary that you have good reason to believe that you might need them to defend yourself against attack by those driven to violence by the expression of those views...

[MajGenl.Meade]

I think there are legitimate public safety grounds for banning the use or display of shields, torches, weapons and weapon-like objects at these kinds of events

Exactly. I remember going to football matches in the UK where the police stopped everyone at the turnstiles to inspect feet. If you were wearing "kicker boots", you went into the ground in your socks and hoped to find your boots when you got back out. Prevention is better than cure.

I think it's true that in all grounds now you can't take your team/country flag into the stadium if it is mounted on a wooden stick. Only bendy plastic "straws" are permitted. My wooden flag stick was confiscated in Bloemfontein at the Germany/England world cup game in 2010.

We all know that football supporters can turn violent - so remove weapons. How much more so is that true of "demonstrators" who tool up for violence from the get-go?

[Lord Jim]

How much more so is that true of "demonstrators" who tool up for violence from the get-go?

I don't have a problem with that at all, if it's applied as a, "we don't allow anyone participating in any demonstration to carry these items into the demonstration area" way. (I believe some municipalities are already doing this.)

I'm uncomfortable not with the concept of prohibiting weapons or logically implied potential weapons from demonstrations in general...

Just with the concept of having the government pick and choose which "kinds of events" trigger these prohibitions....

[Big RR]

I tend to agree with Jim on this point, but there may be some calls that are not as easy to make (e.g. what kind of signs, sticks, microphones etc.).

[Guinevere]

The arc of the moral universe is indeed long, but it bends towards justice. Keep speaking out. Our voices matter!

The entire business advisory council has been voluntarily disbanded

[ex-khobar Andy]

Just seen a breaking news crawl on CNN: Pence coming home early from his international trip.

Makes my flesh creep.

[BoSoxGal]

A whole bunch of those Nazis were packing serious firearm weaponry Friday and Saturday, so I'd say it's a blessing the violence was only as horrific as it was - the Nazi in the Vice report flat out asserts that a lot more people are going to die before they achieve their goals.

I'm very glad I live in a liberal state with strict gun control laws so I don't have to worry that the Nazis on the Common Saturday are packing firearms.

[Lord Jim]

Pence coming home early from his international trip.

Hey, maybe that means that Trump is getting ready to resign...

[Big RR]

Dream? More like substituting one nightmare for another.

[Lord Jim]

So you'd just as soon keep Trump?

[Big RR]

No, I'd pretty much take anyone over him, but President Pence is no dream of mine.

[Lord Jim]

Pence wouldn't be #1 on my list either, but Trump resigning in and of itself would qualify as a dream come true for me...

[ex-khobar Andy]

dis mite be gud time to switch to plan b.

[Sue U]

I highly doubt Trump will resign. First, his monstrous ego won't let him. Second, failure to disavow his Nazi and racist supporters is neither a criminal nor an impeachable offense -- it's just really awful and embarrassing politics; but since Trump has no shame and no moral compass, it's irrelevant to him in any event. Finally, he wouldn't do it for the good of the party (or the country) because he doesn't give a fuck about the party (or the country). Despite the hand-wringing of some GOP pols and pundits, there is virtually no resignation pressure from Congress or other party leadership, and slim to no chance of an impeachment proceeding any time in the foreseeable future.

Remember, Trump hasn't even been in office seven months yet. For all the pain, humiliation and sheer what-the-fuckery it brings to our nation, I would rather see a politically crippled and endlessly distracted Trump remain in office at least through the mid-terms and probably even to the end of his term. And if it teaches the Nihilist wing of the GOP an electoral lesson or two, then so much the better.

[Sue U]

Also too:

[BoSoxGal]

I agree with Sue; Trump is doing a whole bunch of screwed up stupid policy stuff under the radar while we are all distracted by his shit show, but Pence would do the same and more because he knows better how to work the system. Pence is a Christofascist and has a deeply disturbing agenda he would pursue in office - and he's complicit in Trump's absurdistration and isn't fit to serve either.

At this point I vote for Trump to continue his daily train wreck approach to governance, remaining so toxic that the GOP won't assist in his agenda and he's basically stalled until the midterms change the balance of power and both Trump and Pence go down in flames in 2020.

I just hope the Democrats are working on their own hot messes and I'm concerned that because of Trump's serious floundering, they might be just resting on their laurels and preparing to run 2018 and 2020 the same broken way as 2016. We'll see, I suppose.


eta: The Empire had a permit, after all.

[Big RR]

While I agree Pence could be worse for the reasons pointed out by BSG, I am seriously concerned about Trump and the possibility of his putting us into some serious turmoil, maybe even launching nuclear weapons. The man does not appear to be sane and I think there is a good chance he could do some serious damage to the nation before the midterms. He is a loose cannon and is too dangerous to let remain in office too long.

As for Pence, complicit or not, I doubt he would also be removed from office unless he committed a major blunder, and I think he is too savvy to do that. If we get rid of Trump we'll be stuck with him, but as bad as the prospect of that is, I think the potential downside of a long term Trump presidency is far, far worse.

As for Trump's resigning, he could easily have one of his PR people package it as doing it for his businesses which need him more than the nation does, with good old boy Pence standing in the wings to carry on his work. I think he had no idea what being president would be like and he is getting pretty sick of it by now, I seriously doubt he will want to continue on in the role long term. Face it, Trump is a guy who has run from every business he has had when he gets bored, and he gets bored and frustrated pretty easily.

[Burning Petard]

Anybody but Trump? Was it not "Anybody but Hillary" that helped give us Trump?

And please note that Baltimore, with no fanfare or crowd action, removed the city's Civil War memorial statures. Four of them last night. Just do the right thing.

snailgate