Trump's Strange Alabama speech

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Guinevere
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Re: Trump's Strange Alabama speech

Post by Guinevere »

Lord Jim wrote:
I can't believe how entirely blind you are to the fact that dissent and peaceful protest is exactly what the First Amendment protects.
I think I may have found a copy of the Constitution you're using:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, or the right of the people to play in the National Football League, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
ETA:

At the half:

Washington Redskins......14



Oakland Ass Sitters...........0

You might want to check out a doctrine of employment law called termination in violation of public policy. This is different than termination in violation of a specific statute like state and federal anti-discrimination laws. Under this doctrine, employees are protected from termination for engaging in protected activity. What constitutes protected activity varies from state to state and case to case, it includes things like filing claims against the employer (potentially also retaliation claim), but also acting on your rights to vote, to petition for redress of grievances, and I saw one case that mentioned taking a family member to a doctors appointment. I think it very possible that exercising your first amendment rights to engage in political protest could be included. That exercise may not apply under the collective-bargaining agreement that applies to NFL players, and given the fact that the NFL is now actively supporting players who choose to protest this way, they may have covered themselves. But it also wouldn't surprise me if at some point, a cut player, brings this kind of claim.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

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dales
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Re: Trump's Strange Alabama speech

Post by dales »

For your information I don't give 2 sihts what Trump thinks.



Here's another take which reflects from where I'm coming from:



http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... -should-w/

Sure, players can kneel — and NFL’s customers should walk



By Ralph Z. Hallow - The Washington Times - Updated: 11:25 p.m. on Sunday, September 24, 2017


ANALYSIS/OPINION:


Mass fan walkouts at stadiums will prove more effective than boycotting NFL advertisers.

Organize mass exits and I guarantee you’ll beat the flag flouters at their own mass-media game.

This is not to say you shouldn’t continue to throw your slippers at the TV set and curse a blue streak when major league players thumb their noses at Old Glory. I do.

I’m just saying we can also do something really useful.

When you walk out after standing for “Oh say can you see … ,” the TV cameras will show you saying, louder and better, the opposite of what the flag back-handers are saying.

The TV cameras will follow you to the exits of those vast stadiums — instant TV impact nationally and internationally.

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


yrs,
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Guinevere
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Re: Trump's Strange Alabama speech

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those who do not remember the past....

Martin Luther King Jr.'s famous "Letter from Birmingham Jail," published in The Atlantic as "The Negro Is Your Brother" and excerpted below, was written in response to a public statement of concern and caution issued by eight white religious leaders of the South. It stands as one of the classic documents of the civil-rights movement.

While confined here in the Birmingham city jail, I came across your recent statement calling our present activities "unwise and untimely." Seldom, if ever, do I pause to answer criticism of my work and ideas. If I sought to answer all of the criticisms that cross my desk, my secretaries would be engaged in little else in the course of the day, and I would have no time for constructive work. But since I feel that you are men of genuine good will and your criticisms are sincerely set forth, I would like to answer your statement in what I hope will be patient and reasonable terms.

I think I should give the reason for my being in Birmingham, since you have been influenced by the argument of "outsiders coming in"



I am in Birmingham because injustice is here ...I am cognizant of the interrelatedness of all communities and states. I cannot sit idly by in Atlanta and not be concerned about what happens in Birmingham. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly affects all indirectly. Never again can we afford to live with the narrow, provincial "outside agitator" idea. Anyone who lives inside the United States can never be considered an outsider ...

We have waited for more than three hundred and forty years for our God-given and constitutional rights. The nations of Asia and Africa are moving with jetlike speed toward the goal of political independence, and we still creep at horse-and-buggy pace toward the gaining of a cup of coffee at a lunch counter. I guess it is easy for those who have never felt the stinging darts of segregation to say "wait." But when you have seen vicious mobs lynch your mothers and fathers at will and drown your sisters and brothers at whim; when you have seen hate-filled policemen curse, kick, brutalize, and even kill your black brothers and sisters with impunity; when you see the vast majority of your twenty million Negro brothers smothering in an airtight cage of poverty in the midst of an affluent society;
when you suddenly find your tongue twisted and your speech stammering as you seek to explain to your six-year-old daughter why she cannot go to the public amusement park that has just been advertised on television, and see tears welling up in her little eyes when she is told that Funtown is closed to colored children, and see the depressing clouds of inferiority begin to form in her little mental sky, and see her begin to distort her little personality by unconsciously developing a bitterness toward white people; when you have to concoct an answer for a five-year-old son asking in agonizing pathos, "Daddy, why do white people treat colored people so mean?"; when you take a cross-country drive and find it necessary to sleep night after night in the uncomfortable corners of your automobile because no motel will accept you; when you are humiliated day in and day out by nagging signs reading "white" and "colored"; when your first name becomes "nigger" and your middle name becomes "boy" (however old you are) and your last name becomes "John," and when your wife and mother are never given the respected title "Mrs."; when you are harried by day and haunted by night by the fact that you are a Negro, living constantly at tiptoe stance, never quite knowing what to expect next, and plagued with inner fears and outer resentments; when you are forever fighting a degenerating sense of "nobodyness"--then you will understand why we find it difficult to wait. There comes a time when the cup of endurance runs over and men are no longer willing to be plunged into an abyss of injustice where they experience the bleakness of corroding despair. I hope, sirs, you can understand our legitimate and unavoidable impatience ...


You express a great deal of anxiety over our willingness to break laws. This is certainly a legitimate concern. Since we so diligently urge people to obey the Supreme Court's decision of 1954 outlawing segregation in the public schools, it is rather strange and paradoxical to find us consciously breaking laws. One may well ask, "How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?" The answer is found in the fact that there are two types of laws: there are just laws, and there are unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that "An unjust law is no law at all."


Now, what is the difference between the two? How does one determine when a law is just or unjust? A just law is a man-made code that squares with the moral law, or the law of God. An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law. To put it in the terms of St. Thomas Aquinas, an unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal and natural law. Any law that uplifts human personality is just. Any law that degrades human personality is unjust. All segregation statutes are unjust because segregation distorts the soul and damages the personality ...

There are some instances when a law is just on its face and unjust in its application. For instance, I was arrested Friday on a charge of parading without a permit. Now, there is nothing wrong with an ordinance which requires a permit for a parade, but when the ordinance is used to preserve segregation and to deny citizens the First Amendment privilege of peaceful assembly and peaceful protest, then it becomes unjust.

Of course, there is nothing new about this kind of civil disobedience. It was seen sublimely in the refusal of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego to obey the laws of Nebuchadnezzar because a higher moral law was involved. It was practiced superbly by the early Christians, who were willing to face hungry lions and the excruciating pain of chopping blocks before submitting to certain unjust laws of the Roman Empire. To a degree, academic freedom is a reality today because Socrates practiced civil disobedience.


We can never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was "legal" and everything the Hungarian freedom fighters did in Hungary was "illegal." It was "illegal" to aid and comfort a Jew in Hitler's Germany. But I am sure that if I had lived in Germany during that time, I would have aided and comforted my Jewish brothers even though it was illegal. If I lived in a Communist country today where certain principles dear to the Christian faith are suppressed, I believe I would openly advocate disobeying these anti-religious laws ...

I have no fear about the outcome of our struggle in Birmingham, even if our motives are presently misunderstood. We will reach the goal of freedom in Birmingham and all over the nation, because the goal of America is freedom. Abused and scorned though we may be, our destiny is tied up with the destiny of America. Before the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth, we were here. Before the pen of Jefferson scratched across the pages of history the majestic word of the Declaration of Independence, we were here ...If the inexpressible cruelties of slavery could not stop us, the opposition we now face will surely fail. We will win our freedom because the sacred heritage of our nation and the eternal will of God are embodied in our echoing demands ...

Never before have I written a letter this long--or should I say a book? I'm afraid that it is much too long to take your precious time. I can assure you that it would have been much shorter if I had been writing from a comfortable desk, but what else is there to do when you are alone for days in the dull monotony of a narrow jail cell other than write long letters, think strange thoughts, and pray long prayers?

If I have said anything in this letter that is an overstatement of the truth and is indicative of an unreasonable impatience, I beg you to forgive me. If I have said anything in this letter that is an understatement of the truth and is indicative of my having a patience that makes me patient with anything less than brotherhood, I beg God to forgive me.

Yours for the cause of Peace and Brotherhood,
MARTIN LUTHER KING JR.

Volume 212, Number 2, pp. 78-88

King’s letter appeared in the August 1963 issue of the magazine. The full text is not available on The Atlantic's site but can be found here.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

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dales
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Re: Trump's Strange Alabama speech

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Yes, I'm sure many NFL fans have that posted someplace in their house. :lol:

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


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Guinevere
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Re: Trump's Strange Alabama speech

Post by Guinevere »

More willful ignorance. :(
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

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dales
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Re: Trump's Strange Alabama speech

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Give it a rest, already.

Look down your nose at NFL fans if you like.

They pay the over-inflated salaries of the players.

Do you really believe that "Joe Six-Pack" really cares about politics while watching two teams battling it out on the gridiron?

I somehow think not.

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


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Guinevere
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Re: Trump's Strange Alabama speech

Post by Guinevere »

JFC --- get over yourself already. I don't look down at NFL fans -- I am one!

And you're the one saying fans should care more about politics than the game by walking out. Ironically - you're advocating protest to protest protest.
Last edited by Guinevere on Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

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dales
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Re: Trump's Strange Alabama speech

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Lord Jim wrote:The 'Skins are certainly giving Oakland quarterback Derek Carr ample opportunity to sit on his ass...

They've sacked him four times...
27 to 10..........oaktown first loss of the season.

looks like the oaktown sitters might have not been on top of their game (preoccupied and all).

oh well...............................how 'bout them SF Giants? :lol:

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


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Re: Trump's Strange Alabama speech

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Guinevere wrote:JFC --- get over yourself already. I don't look down at NFL fans -- I am one!

And you're the one saying fans should care more about politics than the game by walking out. Ironically - you're advocating protest to protest protest.
Who's JFC?

Glad you're an NFL fan (I prefer college bowl, myself).

Ironic for both side of the issue, I'm sure.

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


yrs,
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Re: Trump's Strange Alabama speech

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Re: Trump's Strange Alabama speech

Post by Lord Jim »

employees are protected from termination for engaging in protected activity.
Political demonstrations in the workplace are a "protected activity"?

I kinda doubt that...
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Re: Trump's Strange Alabama speech

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I had to look that shit up and found this on Snopes - and now I'm even more sickened by the NFL's blackballing of Colin Kaepernick when those motherfuckers are PAID for their patriotism. American football is a sickness in our society and we'd be better off without it - I hope the spectre of CTE continues to loom large and that in another couple of generations there are no more football players to be drafted because no more mothers let their sons play the stupid so-called sport.
CLAIM
NFL players did not stand for the national anthem until the Defense Dept. started paying the league to stage patriotic displays in 2009.

RATING
MIXTURE
WHAT'S TRUE
NFL players were not required to be on the field during the playing of the U.S. national anthem prior to 2009.

WHAT'S FALSE
Players always had the option of standing on the sidelines during the playing of the national anthem if they so chose.

WHAT'S UNDETERMINED
It's unclear whether players started appearing on the field during the playing of the national anthem in conjunction with Defense Department payments to the NFL or whether the change was coincidental.

ORIGIN
An image widely circulated on Facebook in response to the National Football League’s anthem controversy held that NFL players did not stand on the sidelines during the playing of the U.S. national anthem before games prior to 2009. Instead, they stayed in locker rooms during the anthem and did not begin standing along the sidelines for renditions of “The Star-Spangled Banner” until after the Defense Department began paying the NFL to hold patriotic displaysin 2009:

The issue has been in the public spotlight ever since San Francisco 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick began protesting police brutality by kneeling during the playing of the national anthem during exhibition games played prior to the start of the 2016 NFL season. Several other players, including some in other sports, have since taken part in similar silent demonstrations during the 2016 and 2017 seasons.

Tom E. Curran of Comcast Sportsnet New England reported in a story published on 29 August 2016 that teams standing together on the field during the playing of the national anthem was a relatively recent development in NFL history: “NFL spokesman Brian McCarthy confirmed this morning the practice began in 2009, adding, “As you know, the NFL has a long tradition of patriotism. Players are encouraged but not required to stand for the anthem.”

Prior to that year, whether or not to appear on the field for the anthem was left up to teams’ discretion. In one instance, the Philadelphia Eagles and Washington Redskins did so on 24 November 1963, just two days after the assassination of President John F. Kennedy:

There were 60,671 fans at Franklin Field to see the Eagles and the Redskins play a game that didn’t matter on a weekend on which almost everything else seemed to matter. There was no pregame hoo-ha; [Commissioner Pete] Rozelle, at least, had drawn the line at that. There were no player introductions. The Eagles and the Redskins simply walked out to midfield and joined hands. A bugler blew Taps, which nearly finished [Tommy] McDonald on the spot. Then the whole stadium sang the national anthem a cappella.
ESPN commentator Stephen A. Smith referenced Currant’s report during a segment on 14 September 2016, adding a “paid patriotism” element to the mix:

The players were moved to the field during the national anthem because it was seen as a marketing strategy to make the athletes look more patriotic. The United States Department of Defense paid the National Football League $5.4 million between 2011 and 2014, and the National Guard [paid] $6.7 million between 2013 and 2015 to stage on-field patriotic ceremonies as part of military recruitment budget-line items.
The practice of “paid patriotism” came to light on 30 April 2015, when Sen. Jeff Flake (R-AZ) released a statement chiding the New Jersey Army National Guard for paying between $97,000 and $115,000 to the New York Jets for a series of promotions involving military personnel. That November, Flake and fellow Arizona Republican Sen. John McCain issued a report stating that the Defense Department had been paying for patriotic displays in football and other sports between 2011 and 2014:

Contrary to the public statements made by DOD and the NFL, the majority of the contracts — 72 of the 122 contracts we analyzed — clearly show that DOD paid for patriotic tributes at professional football, baseball, basketball, hockey, and soccer games. These paid tributes included on-field color guard, enlistment and reenlistment ceremonies, performances of the national anthem, full-field flag details, ceremonial first pitches͕ and puck drops. The National Guard paid teams for the “opportunity” to sponsor military appreciation nights and to recognize its birthday. It paid the Buffalo Bills to sponsor its Salute to the Service game. DOD even paid teams for the “opportunity” to perform surprise welcome home promotions for troops returning from deployments and to recognize wounded warriors. While well intentioned, we wonder just how many of these displays included a disclaimer that these events were in fact sponsored by the DOD at taxpayer expense. Even with that disclosure, it is hard to understand how a team accepting taxpayer funds to sponsor a military appreciation game, or to recognize wounded warriors or returning troops, can be construed as anything other than paid patriotism.
However, this report did not cover the year 2009, so it is unclear whether NFL teams’ appearing on the field for the playing of the national anthem truly began in conjunction with the “paid patriotism” policy. We have contacted both Sen. Flake and the NFL regarding this issue but have not received any responses.

The league announced in May 2016 that they would refund $723,724 to taxpayers which they said “may have been mistakenly applied to appreciation activities rather than recruitment efforts” during the years in question.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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Re: Trump's Strange Alabama speech

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At the Seahawks v. Titans game none of the players took the field for the anthem today, and the singer of the anthem took a knee at the end of her performance.

The Seahawks released this statement:
The Seahawks players statement said, "As a team, we have decided we will not participate in the national anthem. We will not stand for the injustice that has plagued people of color in this country. Out of love for our country and in honor of the sacrifices made on our behalf, we unite to oppose those that would deny our most basic freedoms. We remain committed in continuing work towards equality and justice for all."
But nobody is talking about WHY the protests are happening.

:roll:
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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Trump Is Strange

Post by RayThom »

Oh, shit, it's contagious. Those poor little children.
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Re: Trump's Strange Alabama speech

Post by Lord Jim »

But nobody is talking about WHY the protests are happening.
The protestors mention why they're protesting, I'll grant you that...

They've created a great "conversation" between themselves and left-wing bloggers and pundits...

Everybody else is talking about what they think about this type of protest...

Apparently the liberal echo chambers in social media would have people believe these disrespectful displays have ignited some great national dialogue on race relations, but back at reality it just ain't so....
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Re: Trump's Strange Alabama speech

Post by Guinevere »

The NYTimes and the Washington Post are liberal echo chambers? Twitter is a liberal echo chamber?

I know you resist ever admitting you're wrong, but you couldn't be more wrong on this one.
By Editorial Board
September 24 at 7:25 PM

IN 1943, with the nation mobilized for war against fascism, schoolchildren in West Virginia were required each morning to salute the American flag. The purpose, seemingly unexceptionable — and in fact not objected to by many — was “teaching, fostering and perpetuating the ideals, principles and spirit of Americanism.”

However, to Jehovah’s Witnesses the flag was an “image,” which, under their religious beliefs, their children were forbidden to salute. Students refused to do so and were expelled from school; parents were prosecuted; eventually, the case reached the Supreme Court.

There, in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, Justice Robert Jackson wrote for a 6-to-3 majority that the state could not compel children to salute the flag. Reversing a court decision from just three years earlier, Jackson wrote, in the midst of war, what remains one of the enduring statements of confidence in what truly makes America great. “To believe that patriotism will not flourish if patriotic ceremonies are voluntary and spontaneous, instead of a compulsory routine,” he wrote, “is to make an unflattering estimate of the appeal of our institutions to free minds.”


What brings this to mind, of course, is President Trump’s latest bilious eruption. The first inclination, when he starts calling people “sons of b-----s” and waxing nostalgic for days when more concussions were inflicted for the entertainment of football fans, is to look away. It’s embarrassing, after all, to have to explain to the children that we have a president who speaks so rudely. It’s playing into the diversion he may seek when he finds himself flummoxed by Kim Jong Un or Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.). And shouldn’t we be worrying about more important things — health care, tax reform, the inundation of Puerto Rico, the dangers of nuclear war?

But then, when Mr. Trump tweets that players should “stop disrespecting our Flag & Country,” it becomes clear: In some ways, there is nothing more important than his misguided understanding of how to truly respect the flag. Some NFL players have been participating in a fraught, challenging debate about race, policing and criminal justice, and Mr. Trump is offended by this. His response: fire the players who don’t share his views. Demand conformity and uniformity.

He’s not alone, of course. If he were, Colin Kaepernick would probably have a job by now. But the response to Mr. Trump’s ugly tweets and threats, from players and team owners, reflects an encouraging consensus that the real way to respect the American flag is to respect the diversity of opinion it protects. As games began on Sunday, players, coaches and owners kneeled, linked arms and made statements in others ways. “Our players have exercised their rights as United States citizens in order to spark conversation and action to address social injustice,” San Francisco 49ers owner Jed York said Saturday. “We will continue to support them in their peaceful pursuit of positive change in our country and around the world.”

What’s offensive here is not what Mr. Trump thinks about Mr. Kaepernick. At this point, honestly, who cares? But when the president uses his bully pulpit to declare some speech legitimate and some beyond the pale; when his response to protest is to question patriotism rather than engage on the issue of unequal policing — then it is Mr. Trump who “disrespects our Flag & our Country.”

As Justice Jackson wrote three-quarters of a century ago, “If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion, or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein.”
Exercising free speech
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

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Re: Trump's Strange Alabama speech

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Re: Trump's Strange Alabama speech

Post by Bicycle Bill »

When does President Rump* try to issue his own version of Executive Order 9835 and make everyone start swearing loyalty oaths again?
——————
* –– I know he spells his name with a 'T', but his continued actions make me think that the 'T' is supposed to be silent.
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Re: Trump's Strange Alabama speech

Post by Burning Petard »

"Do you really believe that "Joe Six-Pack" really cares about politics while watching two teams battling it out on the gridiron?"

That is exactly my question. What does this waving of Old Glory have to do with any sport (with the possible exception of some team gymnastics where they handle poles with strips of cloth)?

Is not all this competition of who can find the display biggest flag and who can sing the strangest version of the National Anthem, political demonstration?

'Course most football fans don't seem to care much about chronic brain injuries or long-term effects of 'be a man and play through the hurt'.

How many times have you seen a huge flag carried out on the field or down a street, by many marchers under the flag and holding it up?

This is a clear violation of Public Law 94-344, known as the Federal Flag Code, which prohibits display of the flag flat. It should never be displayed horizontally.

So much for 'taking a knee' as form of disrespect for the flag. When did it become a sign of disrespect to kneel?

snailgate.

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Re: Trump's Strange Alabama speech

Post by rubato »

Kneeling is a gesture of submission and reverence. We kneel for prayer and we used to kneel to show humility before hereditary and church leaders. When you put your knee or knees on the ground you have made yourself vulnerable. Only racists closeted from even themselves could pervert it into a gesture of disrespect.

They do so because the real message shames them and they want to change the subject, fast. Black men are shot in the back, or shot unarmed 30 feet away and slammed around in the back of a paddy wagon until their necks are broken and no one ever pays for it. The history of racism is not over especially when people are changing the law specifically to make it harder for blacks to vote.

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