All kicking off in Spain!

[Gob]

Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont says the Spanish region has won the right to statehood following a contentious referendum that was marred by violence.



He said the door had been opened to a unilateral declaration of independence.

Catalan officials later said 90% of those who voted backed independence in Sunday's vote. The turnout was 42.3%.



Spain's constitutional court had declared the poll illegal and hundreds of people were injured as police used force to try to block voting.

Officers seized ballot papers and boxes at polling stations.



"With this day of hope and suffering, the citizens of Catalonia have won the right to an independent state in the form a republic," Mr Puigdemont said in a televised address flanked by other senior Catalan leaders.

"My government, in the next few days will send the results of today's vote to the Catalan parliament, where the sovereignty of our people lies, so that it can act in accordance with the law of the referendum."

He said the European Union could no longer "continue to look the other way".


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41463719

[Long Run]

If the poll is "illegal" then why do they care what the ballots say -- wouldn't they be null and void. The only reason to take away the ballots is to prevent a counting of them which would presumably tell everyone what they already know. On a tangential topic, Catalonia sounds like a nickname Joe Guy would use to describe his home.

[Lord Jim]

The Catalan separatists are like the dog who caught the car:

Catalan separatist urges unity as pressure builds in Spain

BARCELONA, Spain

One of Catalonia's top separatist leaders called for unity Saturday as disputes over strategy threatened to divide those who want the northeastern region to split away from Spain.

Catalonia's regional vice president Oriol Junqueras said separatists need to stop bickering and get behind the last-ditch effort by Catalonia's president to negotiate with Spain's central government.

"We must preserve the unity that is necessary to go all the way on this path to a republic," Junqueras said. "We must reiterate our belief in unity, in unity behind our government and the majority of the parliament."

That decision disappointed many diehard separatists who want the prosperous northeastern region of 7.5 million people to leave Spain. The far-left party CUP and the main grassroots secessionist group, National Catalan Assembly, have both asked Puigdemont not to wait any longer.

Junqueras delivered his message to 200 members of his Republic Left party at its headquarters in Barcelona. The party forms a governing coalition with Puigdemont's conservatives in Catalonia's regional parliament and its allegiance is critical to the secessionist drive.

Junqueras said the best way forward was for secessionists to show "the world who it is who wants to offer dialogue and who rejects it."

Spain's government has also warned that the constitutional crisis in Catalonia is already hurting the economy.

Puigdemont claimed he has a mandate for secession after the "Yes" vote for independence won a referendum Oct. 1 that Spain's top court had suspended on grounds it's likely unconstitutional. Only 43 percent of the eligible voters cast ballots amid a brutal Spanish police crackdown. Parties against secession boycotted the vote.

The European Union supports a united Spain and no foreign country is behind Catalonia's separatists.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/busines ... rylink=cpy

[liberty]

What right do they have to claim independence from Spain; is Spain federal system? If they have no right to separate from Spain then they are traitors and the sovereign government of Spain has the right to execute them for treason. I believe that is what member on this board like Sue believe.

• http://www.answers.com/Q/Is_Spain_Unita ... l?#slide=3
•
• "Is Spain Unitary or Federal?
• According to Arend Lijphart's seminal 1999 study, Patterns of Democracy, Spain is classified as semi-federal because it grants some autonomy to Basque regions but does not meet all other criteria necessary to be considered a federation."

What big daddy gives big daddy can take back!

[rubato]

... I believe that is what member on this board like Sue believe.

... !

I would urge you never to wager money on your ability to guess what someone else is thinking or believes

yrs,
rubato

[dales]

What right do they have to claim independence from Spain; is Spain federal system? If they have no right to separate from Spain then they are traitors and the sovereign government of Spain has the right to execute them for treason.

What udder nonsense.

What "right" did the American colonies have to fight for independence from England?

[Econoline]

What "right" did the American colonies have to fight for independence from England?

• We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

[MajGenl.Meade]

And two weeks back, a most strange kick-off indeed:

Barcelona played their La Liga match against Las Palmas in an empty stadium on Sunday as the backdrop of the referendum on Catalonian independence loomed.

Barcelona made the announcement that doors would be closed for the match just minutes before kickoff, citing safety concerns, with thousands of fans already waiting outside Camp Nou Stadium.

In the statement released by the club, Barcelona criticized La Liga for refusing to allow the game to be postponed and denounced the actions of the Spanish police, who had clashed with citizens in the lead-up to the vote.

[rubato]

What "right" did the American colonies have to fight for independence from England?

• We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

A self-proclaimed right then.


Burke and Bentham would both say that no such right can exist.


yrs,
rubato

[Gob]

A Spanish judge has remanded two key members of the Catalan independence movement in jail.
Jordi Sánchez, who heads the Catalan National Assembly (ANC), and Jordi Cuixart, leader of Omnium Cultural, are being held without bail while they are under investigation for sedition.
The men are seen as leading figures in organising a 1 October independence vote, which Spanish courts suspended.

Spain always has had fascistic tendencies...

[rubato]

Francisco Franco has been downgraded to a tendency?



yrs,
rubato

[Gob]

God you're dumb....

Franco was living proof proof of the tendency to fascism...

[liberty]

... I believe that is what member on this board like Sue believe.

... !

I would urge you never to wager money on your ability to guess what someone else is thinking or believes

yrs,
rubato

I actually have no dog in the fight either way even though some of my ancestors came from Spain. The point I was making is hypocrisy: The comment was made here in another post in the past that my confederate ancestors should have been hanged as traitors or at least that is the note I made. But that is only true of my ancestors the same standard doesn’t apply to other peoples.

[Big RR]

Well Sue can speak for herself, but as I recall treason involves an overt act of making war against the US; I'm not certain just declaring independence as the Catalanians have done, would sufficient for treason if it were in the US; firing on fort sumpter is something different.

[liberty]

Well Sue can speak for herself, but as I recall treason involves an overt act of making war against the US; I'm not certain just declaring independence as the Catalanians have done, would sufficient for treason if it were in the US; firing on fort sumpter is something different.

And, providing aid and comfort to the enemy as Jane Fonda did.

It appears to me what the Spanish authorities are trying to do at the moment is to prevent a war. But if it comes to war they have the right to kill everyone that resist their rule; they are sovereign not the locals. To resist the will of the sovereign is treason. In their system there is no shared sovereignty. Some areas may have self-rule, but where does it come from; what big daddy gives big daddy can take back.

[Big RR]

I have no idea what the Spanish constitution says or what the limit of self rule is, but I would hope merely saying we will resist the decree of the national government is not sufficient to constitute treason. As to where the rights to self govern arises, that is as much a philosophical question as a legal one--does it arise from the divine right of the monarch to grant it, the right of the parliament to enact laws, of the consent of the people? What the Spanish view on this is, I really do not know, but I know what my view is.

[liberty]

I have no idea what the Spanish constitution says or what the limit of self rule is, but I would hope merely saying we will resist the decree of the national government is not sufficient to constitute treason. As to where the rights to self govern arises, that is as much a philosophical question as a legal one--does it arise from the divine right of the monarch to grant it, the right of the parliament to enact laws, of the consent of the people? What the Spanish view on this is, I really do not know, but I know what my view is.

This is from my other site. I agree with poster three. He said that he lived in Spain for what it is worth.

Poster 1: Democracy does not mean that you are idiot or self suicide.

Poster 2: Actually, by definition, yes it does. In a democracy, you should be able to choose your destiny.

Poster 3: Not exactly.In a democracy the majority selects their leaders but their leaders should obey to the constitution.

The constitution of Spain does not allow separatism.

If the separatists want independence they will must have either a wide majority in the country in order to change the constitution or to gain their independence with war.

[Bicycle Bill]

Well Sue can speak for herself, but as I recall treason involves an overt act of making war against the US; I'm not certain just declaring independence as the Catalanians have done, would sufficient for treason if it were in the US; firing on fort sumpter is something different.

And, providing aid and comfort to the enemy as Jane Fonda did. (just curious — what's the difference between what she did and what Dennis Rodman did in visiting Kim Jong Un's Korea; not just once but several times?)

It appears to me what the Spanish authorities are trying to do at the moment is to prevent a war. But if it comes to war they have the right to kill everyone that resist their rule; they are sovereign not the locals. To resist the will of the sovereign is treason (actually, the term you want is lèse majesté). In their system there is no shared sovereignty. Some areas may have self-rule, but where does it come from; what big daddy gives big daddy can take back.

parenthetic comments by

-"BB"-

[MajGenl.Meade]

A self-proclaimed right then.

Burke and Bentham would both say that no such right can exist.

yrs,
rubato

Are not all "rights" self-proclaimed"? Unless of course you concede a divine creator and universal rights dependent upon him...

[Sue U]

This is the first time I've even looked in on this thread since the second (Long Run's) post, and yet it seems that my view of independence movements is somehow a topic of discussion?

On the subject of Catalonian independence, I am agnostic; I am at best vaguely aware of the historical suppression of Catalan language and culture and have no idea what present-day issues are driving the secessionist movement.

As a general principle I have nothing against devolution, secession and independence movements, and I don't think they are inherently "treasonous," especially where no one is taking up arms to depose the government. As far as I can tell, the Catalonian movement is exactly the opposite of treason, since it is expressing itself through actual governmental processes as much as it can, and even to the extent the provincial legislature might declare independence, it is not at war with the central government. There is not even any "enemy" to which to "give aid and comfort," if you insist on applying U.S. standards. So far, this is strictly an internal political dialogue.

If the Catalonian secession movement results in actual civil war, then of course such action would be treasonous, especially from Madrid's point of view. There is no doubt that the American war against Great Britain was treason, and there is no doubt that the so-called Confederacy's war against the United States was treason: levying war against the sovereign is pretty much the definition of treason. Whether the political and military leaders of such actions should be executed or imprisoned depends on the perceived political necessity -- but mostly on who "wins" the conflict. Still, I would think that in only the rarest of situations would it be appropriate to charge anyone below the level of a general officer with treason. I don't know whether there's any actual legal rule about that, bit that's what would make sense to me.