In the beginning ...

[Rick]

Given a choice (aka free will) ....

If the God of the Judeo-Christian tradition exists, the existence of human free will is impossible.

You wouldn't have free will.

However I do...

[Andrew D]

It does not matter who says it. The coexistence of the God of the Judeo-Christian tradition(s) -- specifically, God as omniscient, omnipotent, and the creator of everything -- and human free will is a logical impossibility. No defense of that coexistence has ever withstood logical analysis.

[Crackpot]

How?

Show your work.

[Crackpot]

Forget that I don't need it your error is the assumption that the ability to observe time as a whole removes the possibility of choice.

I put to you this question:

How does the observation of actions negate the free will of the observed?

You state this as fact without ever explaining the mechanism by which this occurs.

[Andrew D]

I have articulated the logical impossibility on numerous occasions. You, on the other hand, have yet to come up with anything other than bald assertions that the God of the Judeo-Christian tradition(s) and human free will can logically coexist. If you think that there is a logically defensible argument for that coexistence, produce it.

Misconstruing my argument is no valid response to it. As I have pointed out to you before, I do not contend that the mere "ability to observe time as a whole removes the possibility of choice." Such a contention would be relevant only if the Christian tradition(s) considered God to be a mere observer of the universe. Is that your understanding of God?

[Rick]

You assert that belief in God is irrational yet suppose to refute free will through logic.

Which is itself irrational.

If (as I believe) God exists then he has and does speak for himself on this issue and I have provided scripture that supports this (at the other site).You and Delphi use the same argument and both of you refuse to allow use of material that is put forth by God.

In the parable of the sower the problem didn't lie with the seed or the sower.

The inhibitor was the soil.

We are at impasse...

[rubato]

Is it logically impossible for a being with limitless power to limit themselves?

I have thought that the story of the fall in Genesis was very beautiful because of the way that it solved the logical problems.

If God limited himself and allowed free will how could we tell that he had done so?

If he made beings and told them not to do something, which he made it possible for them to do, granted, but which he willed them not to do either, and then they did it, is that not proof?

What compassionate god would not want to shield his children from the primordial sin, the loss of innocence. the knowledge of good and evil? Can anyone who has thought about that one-way trip of consciousness not understand how irrevocable it is? How that is the one harm that can never be undone. But what other act could god have prohibited which had the same logical effect? I cannot think of any.

Its an amazingly beautiful story, even for an old atheist like myself.

yrs,
rubato

[Crackpot]

Misconstruing my argument is no valid response to it. As I have pointed out to you before, I do not contend that the mere "ability to observe time as a whole removes the possibility of choice." Such a contention would be relevant only if the Christian tradition(s) considered God to be a mere observer of the universe. Is that your understanding of God?

Then you have failed in your proof since I can see no way in which omnipotence and creation in and of themselves negates free will since creation has no bearing on free will and omnipotence, the power to do anything (including negating free will), doesn't mean he does.

THat leaves omniscience. Knowing all. Given God as creator of the universe means that God exists outside/apart from the universe. Given that time is a function of the universe and thus his creation means he can view it from a perspective outside of our limited perspective. THus granting him omniscience without needing absolute control (the negation of free will) of his creation.

Such a contention would be relevant only if the Christian tradition(s) considered God to be a mere observer of the universe. Is that your understanding of God?

Not at all there are numerous occasions where God interacts with his creation including the negation of someones free will. The point being that these interactions are the exception rather than the norm. THe fact that he can negate free will does not mean it is always the case. More to the point if there was no free will why have these interactions at all? Why not have everything run without his intervention along the timeline? Do these interventions therefore imply that he is bound by his creation to interact in such was with it? Would that not also negate his free will?

I do not claim to know the absolute answer to the God/free will question . I only know that it hasn't been decided/a done deal.

I believe in free will because quite honestly without it I Find my belief in God and whatever sense of meaning I've gleaned from this life to be completely meaningless.

With Free will I can accept this world and it's flaws as part of a "lesson" to teach us something or some things necessary for a better understanding of him/the world. THe value of a lesson learned vs. knowledge bestowed and all of that.

Without freewill I see us as nothing more than clockwork in a poorly designed program suffering needlessly at the whim of a childish puppet master.

[loCAtek]

Oh dear CP, here is where you and I finally disagree theologically regarding free will.

This from a Pure Land Buddhist, which is Buddhism on a Christian Scale.

The dimensional division is based on time.

Right Now you have Free Will because you're separate from God, and mired in matter and time.

Remove all attachments, to become one with God; and time, matter and will become meaningless.

[Andrew D]

The logic is straightforward.

If I have free will, then it is possible that I will choose to do X, and it is possible that I will choose not to do X. (And it is, of course, impossible for me both to do X and not to do X, so if I "choose" both to do X and not to do X, I am insane.)

Before I choose either to do X or not to do X, God, being omniscient, already knows which choice I will make. (And God's asserted "ability to see time as a whole" is irrelevant: If I have free will, my free will necessarily operates in the temporal universe, because that is the universe in which God, in Her/His/Its omnipotence, has chosen to place me.)

If God knows that I will choose to do X, then I will choose to do X. Thus, if God knows that I will choose to do X, then it is impossible for me to choose not to do X. Were it otherwise -- if it were that even though God "knows" that I will choose to do X, I actually will choose not to do X -- then God would be wrong. If God can be wrong, then God is not omniscient. And that is contrary to the nature of God as asserted in the Judeo-Christian tradition(s).

If God knows that I will choose not to do X, then I will choose not to do X. Thus, if God knows that I will choose not to do X, then it is impossible for me to choose to do X. Were it otherwise -- if it were that even though God "knows" that I will choose not to do X, I actually will choose to do X -- then God would be wrong. If God can be wrong, then God is not omniscient. And that is contrary to the nature of God as asserted in the Judeo-Christian tradition(s).

If I have free will, then it is possible that I will choose to do X, and it is possible that I will choose not to do X. If God knows that I will choose to do X, then it is not possible that I will choose not to do X; and if God knows that I will choose not to do X, then it is not possible that I will choose to do X.

If it is not possible that I will choose to do X, then the statement "it is possible that I will choose to do X" is false. If that statement is false, then I do not have free will. If it is not possible that I will choose not to do X, then the statement "it is possible that I will choose not to do X" is false. If that statement is false, then I do not have free will.

If I have free will, then the assertions that God is omniscient and omnipotent and the creator of everything are necessarily false. If God is omniscient and omnipotent and the creator of everything, then the assertion that I have free will is necessarily false.

I have presented that logical analysis to you repeatedly. You have never presented any logical analysis which discloses any flaw in it. You have evaded it, you have diverted attention from it, and you have denied it without presenting any basis for your denial.

For a change, try actually confronting it.

[loCAtek]

LOL I've accepted it, it's comfort to me. Life isn't random and chaotic, it has a purpose and reason; and one day, I will know it fully.

[loCAtek]

I'll do my best, AndrewD as I've always done, but I'm no guru. never claimed to be...

[Andrew D]

Okay, reasoning doesn't matter to you.

Is there anyone out there who actually cares about logical reasoning and is willing to confront the logic which proves that if a God as defined in the Judeo-Christian tradition(s) exists, human free will is impossible? Or will you all just run away?

[Big RR]

But andrew, you reach the wrong conclusion; it is not that god does not exist, but that the traditionally held judeochristian ideas about the nature of that god are flawed. Certainly the bible is full of contradictions to the omnipotence and omniscience of god, although it is fairly consistent on the free will of man to choose his own path. Clearly if everything is predestined (or known from the moment of creation) there is no free will. So one can either conclude there is no free will, or that a god is not omniscient as we understand it--I lean toward the latter.

[Andrew D]

The Bible is consistent on the free will of man to choose his own path? Where does it say that?

It says quite the opposite: People have faith if God gives them faith. And if God does not give them faith, He/She/It turns around and punishes them for not having the faith which He/She/It chose not to give them.

There may actually be a loving God. But the God of scripture is a nasty, vicious thing who creates people for the sole purpose of condemning them to eternal torment.

[Rick]

Okay, reasoning doesn't matter to you.

Is there anyone out there who actually cares about logical reasoning and is willing to confront the logic which proves that if a God as defined in the Judeo-Christian tradition(s) exists, human free will is impossible? Or will you all just run away?

You center your theme on 1 notion.

As CP points out very clearly God is everywhere at once.

Now is your statement in logic applicable while God is in the pacific timezone with Gob or here with me in central time or you in pacific.

Faced with that your logic is irrelavent...

[Andrew D]

The logic -- there is no such thing as "your" logic or mine; there are only logic and illogic -- is not irrelevant; it is unassailable.

As I have already observed, if I have free will, that free will necessarily operates in the temporal universe, because the temporal universe is the one in which (by virtue of God's creative omnipotence if scripture is true) I find myself. It does not matter whether God is everywhere at once or sees all time as a whole or whatever. God may be and do such things, but I am and do not.

If it were God's alleged free will at issue, such things would be germane. But God's alleged free will is not at issue; at issue is my alleged free will (and yours and every other human being's). For me (and you and everyone else), there are before and after, and it is of no significance (if it is true) that for God, everything is now.

With respect to my supposed exercise of free will, God knew what "choice" I would make before I made it. God cannot be wrong, so God's knowledge of what "choice" I would make negates any possibility of my having made an actual choice.

All these arguments concerning God's seeing time as a whole and being everywhere at once and so forth are merely evasions. They have no bearing on the issue at hand.

Either Christianity can explain how it is that I have free will in the temporal universe even though God knows in advance in the temporal universe of my supposed exercise of that free will in the temporal universe, or it cannot. And after centuries of trying, Christianity has failed to provide any such explanation that stands up to logical analysis.

If you think that such an explanation exists, produce it. Resorting to God's alleged extratemporality is no explanation at all.

Indeed, at least here, no explanation based on God's alleged extratemporality has even been attempted. If you think that there is a logical chain of reasoning which leads from the premise that God "sees time as a whole" or whatever to the conclusion that human beings have free will, produce it. All we have seen thus far are claims that God's alleged extratemporality makes -- in some mysterious way that has never been explained -- human free will possible.

Choose to confront the logic and attempt to refute it. Or just keep running away from it. That decision, according to your own assertions, is entirely up to you.

[Sean]

Okay, reasoning doesn't matter to you.

Is there anyone out there who actually cares about logical reasoning and is willing to confront the logic which proves that if a God as defined in the Judeo-Christian tradition(s) exists, human free will is impossible? Or will you all just run away?

You center your theme on 1 notion.

As CP points out very clearly God is everywhere at once.

Now is your statement in logic applicable while God is in the pacific timezone with Gob or here with me in central time or you in pacific.

Faced with that your logic is irrelavent...

Sorry Keld, to me that's just the standard cop out used by many religious people when confronted with irrefutable logic:

"God did it". "God can do anything". "Because God says so". "God is everywhere:.

It all amounts to the same thing, is impossible to back up (but totally unneccessary to back up according to the aforementioned religious people) and impossible to argue against with such close-minded people.

[dales]

Faith is illogical.

I am a person of faith.

Therefore, I am illogical.

Thank-You

[Andrew D]

Non-logical is one thing. Anti-logical is quite another.