The Alabama Senate Race Just Got a Lot More Interesting...

[RayThom]

"God helps those who help themselves"

[Bicycle Bill]

And you often write about how frustrating life has been because the ladies seem to loathe and shun your advances so often. Well, duh!

Ray, I don't think I've ever posted anything about the ladies 'loathing' me or 'shunning my advances'.  It's just that in the first forty-plus years of my life I never really made any advances.  Even on those few infrequent times during my college career where I occasionally would ask someone of the female gender out to see a movie or a concert, or join me for a dinner at a restaurant, my invitations were usually accepted — and no, not in a "well, I suppose if I've gotta, I've gotta" manner.

The true fact of the matter is that  I  was the one who never felt totally comfortable in these situations.  I never knew what was expected of me.  At the movie, for example, do I put my arm around her the back of her neck and onto her far shoulder?  And if I do, do I just leave it there or do I 'let my fingers do the walking'?  Am I expected to try to find out if her bra unhooks from the front or the back, or what style and color panties she's wearing?  Or am I supposed to sit there passively and let her take the initiative to see if I'm wearing boxers or briefs?

Keep in mind too that I was raised a devout Roman Catholic and that
1) good Catholic boys didn't behave like that
2) Catholic or not, neither did good girls
3) even if you did succumb to the evils of the flesh you still weren't in the clear — God knows and the only reason He didn't zap the both of you with a lightning bolt right there in the back row at the movies is that He didn't want to ruin a perfectly good theater.

And just supposing you were able to negotiate that particular minefield, there was still the dilemma of the endgame at her front door.  Remember, there were no hard-and-fast rules for dating, and there were as many ideas as to what was supposed to happen on a date as there people to espouse them.  Was a 'good-night' kiss something that was expected as part of the end-of-the-date ritual?  If so, who initiated it and where — forehead, cheek, back of her hand in the Continental manner, or on the lips?  And how long was it supposed to last?

Even something as simple (to me, anyway) as to who pays isn't even the same.  I was 'taught' that when I invited someone out for the evening I assumed all the expenses; now, however, I am apparently disrespecting my date's individuality and 'personhood' because I am sending a not-so-subtle message that I feel she is incapable of fending for herself and needs me — or some other male — to provide for her and dominate her. (I'm sure BSG or Guinevere can provide the 'official' party line and legalese on this)  Hello?  I'm not trying to send any messages; if I was, I'd write a letter.  I'm just wanting to have the pleasure of your company for the evening while doing something the both of us might enjoy!

So now you know why I'm a lonely older man.  I never really played the dating game in my youth, and once I decided that maybe I had missed something and wanted to get into the lineup and onto the field I found that the game is being played under a whole new set of rules; a set of rules that may as well be written on an Etch-a-Sketch because they never seem to remain the same.

-"BB"-

[RayThom]

Bicycle Bill wrote:
... If for no other reason than the benefits that are to be gained in the fight against Alzheimer's, we really must find out what these women are eating or drinking that allows their memories to remain so sharp, vivid, and accurate three or four decades after the fact.

BB, once you realized that parental dictates, the Douay–Rheims, and Boy Scout Handbook, weren't teaching you how the real world works you should have ditched them. I, too, was raised catholic -- with bishops, priests, and nuns in the family -- but once I knew how mentally disabling the dogma and dictates had become I ditched them wholesale and never looked back.

Yes, I had a wicked adjustment period. My doubt and self-loathing eventually got to me and alcohol, drugs, and isolation assuaged the guilt. Fortunately, that was my wake-up call that forced me to change -- or possibly die unloved and alone. As I slowly emerged from my twisted haze I started to understand that the young women around me were my equal and I didn't have to retreat from them due to the odd way I perceived myself. My rigid catholic faith nor familial upbringing no longer interfered with how I needed to treat the women I started to mingle with.

Old mores disappeared and I found in our shared youthful exuberance that we were all somewhat "walking on the wild side" trying to find our way in life. Hardly anyone was looking for special treatment -- we'd talk, try best to accept each other's POV, and meet somewhere in between. Everything after that came more or less organically. Don't get me wrong, "sex, drugs/booze, and rock n' roll" was still a component of my dating scene but at least we weren't held to unrealistic, old time, standards. Thankfully I wasn't capable of becoming a Lothario, I have always been awkward in my relationships, but I no longer felt I must treat the opposite sex using parental and/or religiously instilled dictates and guidelines to establish a relationship.

If I ever displayed any misogynist behavior it was prior to my transformation, back when I thought I was supposed to wield the power of a manly man -- like my father did with the people around him. The greatest delineator, however, came about when I became a father to my wonderful daughter. As we grew up together we would dissect the "Guy Code" page by page. Any misogynistic tendencies I once held mercifully vanished into the ether on or before 03/19/90.

BB, it's never too late to change but with your display of blatant misogyny you really seem hellbent on keeping any chance of a meaningful relationship at arms length, or farther. Regardless, it will not serve any purpose in here other than to inflame as you quickly found out. "Hate Has No Home Here" Peace.

[RayThom]

Evangelicals Announce They Will Withdraw Support For Roy Moore Should Three Or Four Dozen More Women Come Forward
http://babylonbee.com/news/evangelicals ... e-forward/

[Lord Jim]

Eight and counting...

More Women Come Forward With Allegations Against Roy Moore

Three more women have come forward with stories of unwanted sexual advances or misconduct involving Roy Moore, now an Alabama U.S. Senate candidate.

The number of women accusing Republican Senate hopeful Roy Moore of unwanted sexual advances or misconduct rose to eight.

Two more, Gena Richardson and Becky Gray, detailed their experiences with Moore in a Washington Post story published Wednesday evening.

Richardson says she was about 18 years old and working at the Gadsden Mall in Alabama when she met Moore, who was 30. She says Moore asked where she went to school and for her phone number, which she wouldn't give to him.

According to what she told the Post, days later, Moore called her at school and asked her out. Then, Richardson says he asked her again at her job a few days later, and she agreed. After their date, she says Moore gave her an unwanted, "forceful" kiss.

Gray told the Post she was 22 years old and also working at the mall when she met Moore. She alleges Moore hung out in her section of the store and persistently asked her out. She says she "always" denied Moore, claiming she was in a relationship.

In a separate story published on AL.com Wednesday, Tina Johnson described a 1991 incident with Moore. She says she was at his office signing custody papers for one of her children, and as she left, Johnson says Moore grabbed her rear.

Johnson said, "He didn't pinch it; he grabbed it."

In a statement to The Washington Post, Moore's campaign said: "If you are a liberal and hate Judge Moore, apparently he groped you. If you are a conservative and love Judge Moore, you know these allegations are a political farce."

The statement did not address the accusations from Richardson or Gray.

https://www.newsy.com/stories/more-roy- ... e-forward/

[Lord Jim]

Democrat Jones leads Roy Moore by 8 points in Alabama, per Fox News poll

Democrat Doug Jones leads Roy Moore by 8 points among those likely to vote in Alabama’s special election to the U.S. Senate next month, according to Fox News.

The poll, released Thursday afternoon, is the first survey from a major pollster since The Washington Post first reported allegations that Moore had initiated sexual contact with a 14-year-old girl in 1979. Several other women have subsequently come forward with stories about Moore soliciting dates from them while they were underage or, in one case, alleged an attempted sexual assault by Moore.

Before the Fox News poll, RealClearPolitics’ average of recent polls in the state continued to give a slight edge to Moore. The Fox News poll, though, shows a dramatic shift in the race since its last survey in October, with Jones seeing a seven-point jump from the 42 percent he had among registered voters then to 49 percent this month. Among likely voters, he leads 50 percent to 42 percent.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pol ... 95685d421a

[Big RR]

it looks like Fox is aiming to stir up the teapartiers and right wingers to come out and vote for Jones. I somehow doubt the validity of this poll.

[Burning Petard]

could this all be a plot to expand the GOP/Trump base beyond the Southern Fundamentalist Evangelicals? Perhaps an appeal to the Mormon Fundamentalists?

snailgate

[Guinevere]

it looks like Fox is aiming to stir up the teapartiers and right wingers to come out and vote for Jones. I somehow doubt the validity of this poll.

I had the same thought.

[rubato]

It will be interesting to see the results when a real poll is done.

And I think both of you meant to say "vote against Jones"


yrs,
rubato

[Lord Jim]

~sigh~

Oh brother...

I see I'm going to have to repeat the response I gave to Wes, when he was treating any WaPo poll as suspect:

It's just plain ignorant to try and discredit a WaPo/ABC poll based on what one thinks of the Washington Post, or ABC news...

It's not like they've got a bunch of liberal Trump-hating reporters on the phone conducting a "push" poll...

That's not how it works...

Whenever you see a poll attributed to a large news organization, be it the Washington Post, or NBC, (that splits their polling costs with The Wall Street Journal, which is why that one is called "the NBC/WSJ poll") or even (God forbid ) Fox News, those organizations have NOT conducted the poll...

The way it works is, those organizations contract professional independent polling operations to do the polling. And then because they paid for the polling, they're able to "brand" them with their company names and use that for promotional purposes.

And none of these journalism operations have any interest in deliberately generating false results, because that would just damage their reputation.

posting.php?mode=quote&f=3&p=205960

I have to say the responses I have seen here have surprised me...

To be honest, I expected a completely opposite response...

I expected a response like, "If even a poll commissioned by Fox News shows shows Jones ahead, he must really be in the lead"...

I did not expect that bright folks who I respect (like Big RR and Guin...not you rube... )

would be so bought-in to our current toxic political tribalism, that they would assume the existence of dishonesty in this poll...

Pretty much the same way Wes feels about polls commissioned by The Washington Post...

[rubato]

Aw geeze stop pretending that Fox polls are more than pure bullshit.

yrs,
rubato

[Lord Jim]

LMAO

[rubato]

So there are stupid people like LJ who believe Fox polls, and more intelligent people who think Fox polls are shit.

what us in that shit anyway?

yrs,
rubato

[Lord Jim]

what us in that shit anyway?

yrs,
rubato

My God, what a moron...

[BoSoxGal]

I am skeptical of polls after November 8, 2016.

But I’m also thrilled Jones is ahead by 9 points.

[Guinevere]

I get your point LJ. And I was about to make a crack about Faux News - but I’m not like wes - so I’ll leave it alone. Let’s just say I could not control that automatic response.

[Lord Jim]

I think this article does a pretty good job of laying out the path for a Doug Jones victory:

How Doug Jones could pull off a stunner in Alabama

By GABRIEL DEBENEDETTI and DANIEL STRAUSS
11/16/2017 05:06 AM EST

HUNTSVILLE, Ala. — The first and most vital task for Doug Jones to pull off a once-unthinkable upset in Alabama: Get Republican voters comfortable with the idea that it’s OK to pull the lever for this Democrat, if the alternative is scandal-wracked Roy Moore.

“I’m a Republican, but Roy Moore? No way,” one man says in Jones’ latest ad, released Tuesday. “I’m a lifelong Republican, but I just can’t do it,” another concurs. The word “Democrat” is not uttered once.

Nearly unthinkable even a week ago, the prospect of Jones becoming the first Democrat elected to the Senate from Alabama in a quarter century has suddenly become very real. Jones remains an underdog in a state that chose Donald Trump by a 28-point margin in the presidential election, and where Democrats make up just over a third of the electorate, according to polling.

But he does have a path. Here's how it looks, according to interviews with nearly a dozen Democrats within and near Jones' team since Moore was hit with accusations of pursuing — and in two cases abusing — teenage girls.

First, create a permission structure for alienated Republicans who are skeptical of Moore — primarily those who voted against him in the GOP primary — to cross the aisle. At the same time invigorate the base, especially African-Americans, who make up over a quarter of registered voters, according to the Alabama Secretary of State's office. And finally, keep the national Democratic Party and its despised brand as far out of the picture as possible, while still benefiting from its money.

Even before the parade of Moore accusers came forward — a sixth did so on Wednesday —[this was written before the next two came public and the number rose to eight.] local Democrats were quietly upbeat. Controversial in state politics for decades, Moore received just 51 percent of the vote in his last statewide race — during a 2012 election cycle in which Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney carried Alabama with 60 percent of the vote.

Here’s a look at Jones’ game plan ahead of the Dec. 12 election:

Jones will need to bring over some of the state’s suburban moderate Republicans who preferred Sen. Luther Strange to Moore in September's first round of voting, which Strange lost by 10 points.

That will mean making inroads in regions with high shares of college-educated white voters, including Shelby County, Madison County (home of Huntsville), Jefferson County (home of Birmingham), and Montgomery (home of Montgomery city). And it will entail driving down turnout in the more rural parts of Alabama where support for Moore — a former official in Etowah County, home of Gadsden — is strongest.

Jones' allies expect a renewed focus on the counties that backed Strange over Moore.

“These stories about Judge Moore, I think, have the effect of having people give a harder look to him and who he is … and what kind of senator he’d be,” said Birmingham lawyer Giles Perkins, a top Jones adviser. Moore was removed twice from the state Supreme Court and has a history of racist and homophobic comments. "The race was in play before this week.”

Keep D.C. Democrats at bay — to a point

In an attempt to keep the national Democratic Party at arm’s length — and thereby not scare away Republicans — Jones canceled a fundraising trip to Washington this week, skipping an event that would have put him in a room with high-profile Democratic leaders like California Sen. Kamala Harris. Meanwhile, national-level Democrats are plying their hero-in-the-making with advice, money and tweets — without crossing the line into being a public, backfiring nuisance.

High-profile national surrogates are also steering clear of the state: The most famous person to visit Alabama for Jones so far, former Vice President Joe Biden, now has no plans to return. The only other prominent Democrat to appear for Jones — civil rights icon John Lewis — has been deployed to help with African-American turnout. He appeared in Mobile with Jones over the weekend.

“You don’t win those kinds of races by having people from out-of-state go in and tell them what they should do — that nationalizes the race and turns the spotlight on our stereotype,” said former Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean, who said he’d recently spoken with Jones. “The people of Alabama will decide they’ve had enough, and we should get out their way and let that happen.”

“There’s an expectation that he can carry his own over the next four weeks,” added Democrat Randall Woodfin, the mayor-elect of Birmingham, where Jones campaign signs dot the city and its suburbs.

At the same time, Jones is still relying on fundraising help from national Democrats to help fuel his massive spending advantage over Moore on the television airwaves. Senate Democrats’ campaign arm is sending a stream of fundraising emails for Jones, and prominent senators, like Tim Kaine, Harris, Elizabeth Warren, and Kirsten Gillibrand have tapped their campaign supporter lists to help Jones, to great financial effect.

Indiana Sen. Joe Donnelly, in a fundraising note of his own, compared the race with his 2012 victory over a controversial Republican, and Connecticut Sen. Chris Murphy’s appeals netted Jones over $125,000, according to a Democrat familiar with the figures.

The Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee and DNC have remained in close touch with Jones’ team after monitoring the race for months and offering organizing and messaging guidance. But neither has made plans to step in any further, eager to keep the spotlight on Moore and away from themselves.

Invigorate the base

Jones allies are now looking through the results of Moore’s last race to see how they can improve upon the Democrats’ near-win five years ago. That will likely involve running a more sophisticated turnout operation in largely African-American neighborhoods in the cities.

Much of Jones' recent campaign activity has zeroed in on these voters. In addition to the rally with Lewis, he has appeared in both Montgomery and Birmingham — two cities with among the highest proportion of African-American residents in the country. In the last week, he has also visited the far reaches of the state, from Mobile in its southwest corner to Fyffe in the northeast.

Organizing efforts, meanwhile, have largely focused on the so-called Black Belt, a collection of roughly 18 counties including Montgomery and Sumter — where Strange beat Moore.

Still, even if Jones executes this plan to perfection, there’s no guarantee he’ll win. Democrats haven't won any statewide race in Alabama since 2008, after all, and haven't gotten a senator elected here since 1992.

"There is unvarnished skepticism of The Washington Post, and media in general, among grass-roots conservatives,” said Republican state Sen. Phil Williams of Gadsden, outlining Jones’ challenge and pointing to the paper that broke the first story about Moore and his past behavior. Williams, who endorsed Moore over Strange, said the accusations meant the race would be “closer” than it otherwise would be, but predicted Moore would still win.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/ ... ate-244884

It seems to me that Jones is following exactly the game plan he needs to maximize his ability to exploit Moore's vulnerabilities and enhance his chances of victory.

It seems to me that of three pillars of the strategy, ("attract disaffected Republicans", "avoid over-association with the national Democratic party" and "invigorate the base") "invigorate the base" is going to be the toughest challenge....

However, in the off-year elections that were held a couple of weeks ago, (and not just in Virgina, but in votes in New Jersey, New Hampshire and Maine) the Democratic base showed an ability to do something that it hasn't had a very good track record for doing in recent years...

Turning out to vote in large numbers in elections where the name "Barack Obama" wasn't on the ballot...

If the same kind of energy can be marshaled in this election, (and it looks like the Jones campaign has the kind of ground organization needed to take advantage of this, if it exists) Jones can pull this off...

[Lord Jim]

I don't think that newspaper endorsements have much impact on elections any more, but I thought this one was worth posting; it gives an internal Alabama perspective:

The Alabama Media Group stripped the editorial across its Sunday front pages. The unusual step comes 10 days after misconduct allegations first surfaced against Moore, the Republican nominee for the state's Senate seat.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/11/19/media/a ... index.html\

This election is a turning point for women in Alabama. A chance to make their voices heard in a state that has silenced them for too long.

The accusations against Roy Moore have been horrifying, but not shocking.

Every day new allegations arise that illustrate a pattern of a man in his 30s strutting through town like the cock of the walk, courting and preying on young women and girls. And though Roy Moore has denied the accusations of these women, his own platform and record is hostile to so many Alabamians.

Unlike the national party, the Alabama Republican establishment has chosen to stand by him, attacking and belittling the brave women who have come forward.

As a news organization, we have independently investigated stories of several Alabama woman who have spoken to us and the Washington Post about the abuse they say they suffered at the hands of Roy Moore decades ago.

The seriousness of these incidents, including one involving a 14-year-old child, cannot be overstated. Nor can the growing number of accusations -- from the women who were at the receiving end of unwanted adult male overtures as teens, to those who say they were physically assaulted -- be parsed with talk of statutes of limitations or whether proof has been recorded on a stone tablet. In the American system, proof beyond a reasonable doubt is a consideration for the courtroom, not the ballot box. It is our job as voters to look closely at the candidates and make up our own minds.

Do not let this conversation be muddled. This election has become a referendum on whether we will accept this kind of behavior from our leaders.

Alabamians have never cared about what the rest of country thinks of them. And we do not expect all the handwringing from national pundits, conservative or liberal, to make much of a difference. This election isn't about what a late-night comedian may think of Alabama or whether Sean Hannity can sell advertisements; it's not about Saturday Night Live or Mitch McConnell. It's not about Breitbart or National Democrats. It is about the moral values of the people of Alabama.

Do not make your voting decision based on who it will affect on a national stage. Vote based on who it will affect in your hometown.

We each know someone in our lives who is a survivor of sexual assault or child abuse. Many of us are still searching for the words needed to tell our own stories and some may never find that voice. This election is about them.

How can we look our neighbors, our parishioners, our colleagues, our partners, or our children in the eyes and tell them they are worth less than ensuring one political party keeps a Senate seat? How can we expect young Alabamians to have faith in their government or their church, when its leaders equivocate on matters as clear cut as sexual abuse?

A vote for Roy Moore sends the worst kind of message to Alabamians struggling with abuse: "if you ever do tell your story, Alabama won't believe you."

Or, worse, we'll believe you but we just won't care.

To be clear: it's not only his record on women and children that disqualifies Moore. If we vote for Roy Moore, Alabama will also show that we don't care about you if you're gay or Muslim or Catholic. If you're an atheist or an immigrant. We'll show each other that we only care about Roy Moore's definition of Alabama. And that there's not room for the rest of us.

Roy Moore says he has faith in the Alabama voters. But apparently only a select few.

This utter disregard for people unlike himself, his pathological fixation on sex, and the steps he's taken to actively diminish other people's freedoms, is more than enough to have disqualified him from this office long before these women stepped into the public eye.

So what now?

Alabamians opposed to Roy Moore have three options on election day: stay home, write in a candidate, or vote for Doug Jones.

As a news organization, we could never advise voters to stay home. Low turnout in the Republican primary contributed to Roy Moore winning a spot on the ballot. Elections matter. And from soldiers overseas to Civil Rights foot soldiers at home, too many people have risked their lives to secure that privilege for Alabamians. And given what's at stake in this election, we urge you to register by November 27.

If your conscience tells you that you cannot vote for either man, write in a candidate that shares your convictions. While we believe that state Republicans response to the allegations brought against Roy Moore has cast a permanent shadow on many others - particularly GOP Chairwoman Terry Lathan who has threatened any Republican who speaks out - there are good options in the Republican Party.

However, we endorse the third option: Doug Jones.

Despite what you may have heard, Doug Jones is a moderate Democrat and a strong candidate for all Alabamians. As the son of a steel family, he understands the concerns facing working class families as factories close and jobs disappear. He's been an active member of Canterbury United Methodist Church in Birmingham. He has built a platform around issues that will define Alabama: job creation, small business development, child healthcare, criminal justice reform and, perhaps most needed of all, compromise.

By bringing justice to four little girls killed at Birmingham's 16th Baptist Church, Jones helped Alabama move forward from the sins of our past. But unlike some national Democrats, he isn't interested in shaming Alabama voters because of their history. As a Red State Democrat, we expect Jones would have a larger seat at the table crafting policy in the Senate. Neither Majority Leader Mitch McConnell nor Minority Leader Chuck Schumer would be able to take Jones' vote for granted (for relevant examples look to West Virginia's Joe Manchin, Montana's Jon Tester or North Dakota's Heidi Heitkamp). That would put Jones in a strong position to work with Sen. Shelby to secure policies that benefit Alabamians.

While Jones is a vocal Christian, despite Moore's claims to be the sole Christian in politics, we know his pro-choice stance may be a deal breaker for some Alabamians, but his stance only advocates the law as it is currently written. After a year of complete control of the White House, the Senate and the House, we are skeptical that this Congress plans to pass any relevant legislation on abortion. Jones' commitment to affordable healthcare for women and children will improve the lives of Alabama's families, and, for us, his pro-choice stance is not disqualifying.

What is disqualifying is the conduct of Roy Moore against women and children. It was disqualifying for his party leaders. It was disqualifying for Alabama's senior senator. And it should be disqualifying for his state party.

By the various misdeeds, miscalculations and mistakes of its voters and leaders, Alabama has left itself with few options. Alabamians must show themselves to be people of principle, reject Roy Moore and all that he stands for.

There is only one candidate left in this race who has proven worthy of the task of representing Alabama. He is Doug Jones.

The voters must make their voices heard.

http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/201 ... aj-story-1

[Guinevere]

Really well said, Alabama Media Group!