With the expected defeat of Andy Roddick at this year's Australian Open, there is really not much reason to watch further programming until the expected Nadal-Federer final. (BTW, it takes a real tennis fan to watch an entire 5-set match, regardless of who is playing).
I've been wondering why there are so few Americans at the top of the game of late. There are lots of programs, lots of competition, lots of camps where one can go to sharpen one's skills. Indeed I think it's still the case that many foreigners come to the Bolletieri camp in Florida, and to many American colleges, then go on to international success.
Could it be that tennis simply does not attract the best athletes? (speaking of the ones who are not genetic mutants, who are focused on BBall and FBall). Black kids want no part of it. Athletic white kids are playing basketball, soccer, and maybe baseball.
Has American tennis become a sport of upper-MC pretenders? Rich mamma's boys who can't make it in "real" sports so their parents get them the best coaches and equipment, and nurture them through selected competitions until they accumulate a roomful of trophies, but can't compete internationally against such powerhouse countries as...Switzerland and...Spain?
Pity.
Tennis is a wonderful sport. It rewards athleticism, intelligence, and endurance. When properly coached, it promotes sportsmanship. It's fun to play, and doesn't cost too much (like, for example, hockey). Best of all, you don't have to be a mutant to succeed.
Pity Black kids can't be induced to give it a try.
American Tennis
Re: American Tennis
Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.
yrs,
rubato
Re: American Tennis
Never heard of the Williams sisters? Althea Gibson? Or is it you think only men play professional tennis. Ever seen James Blake play?
Last edited by Guinevere on Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké
Re: American Tennis
Adding to my list: The Byran brothers -- not black, but American men who have been the number one ranked doubles team for some period of time. Other ranked American players: Mardy Fish (in the top 15-20), John Isner, Sam Querry. The women's side really is a united nations - after the Williams, the next highest ranked American woman is teen phenom Melanie Oudin.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké
Re: American Tennis
it is a fair question: what happened to America producing top men in tennis? I guess one could ask the same thing of England and Australia since they've had their runs with cadres of top players. Other than the Williams sisters, the women's side in the U.S. is also weak. It may be that a lot more countries have caught up, but is there something not happening in U.S. tennis that was there before?
Re: American Tennis
Guin,
Aside from simply feeling you must disagree with everything I post, you point would be what?
That a small handful of African American tennis players over the past generation is indicative of their active participation in the sport? Please. Why didn't you point out that "There are twice as many AA's in Tennis as there are in Hockey!" It is about as relevant.
And I didn't say that no Americans play tennis, I was saying that there are no Americans at the top of the sport. Which is a fact.
Some expected the Wms sisters to encourage a lot of other Black women to get into the sport but IT DIDN'T HAPPEN, and they are basically history (due to a laundry list of real and imagined injuries).
Doubles? Gimme a break. WGAS?
Aside from simply feeling you must disagree with everything I post, you point would be what?
That a small handful of African American tennis players over the past generation is indicative of their active participation in the sport? Please. Why didn't you point out that "There are twice as many AA's in Tennis as there are in Hockey!" It is about as relevant.
And I didn't say that no Americans play tennis, I was saying that there are no Americans at the top of the sport. Which is a fact.
Some expected the Wms sisters to encourage a lot of other Black women to get into the sport but IT DIDN'T HAPPEN, and they are basically history (due to a laundry list of real and imagined injuries).
Doubles? Gimme a break. WGAS?
Re: American Tennis
Why has the Russian invasion been nearly all women?
yrs,
rubato
yrs,
rubato
Re: American Tennis
Russian Women:
The "Best Athlete" Theory
Every population as a certain number of people who are superior athletes. Think of Bo Jackson. Babe Didrickson. Albert Pujols.
These are people who have the strength, coordination, quickness, and possibly size to excel at just about any athletic activity they choose to pursue.
Each society has opportunities for achieving wealth, fame, and/or status through athletics, and the culture determines which of those are most "rewarding." They are different for woman and for men. The top athletes gravitate to the sports within their society that offer the greatest opportunities for reward, leaving the door open for lesser athletes in the other sports.
The best illustration of the phenomenon is in the heavyweight boxing division. For generations, the heavyweight champion of the world was a black, American man. The sport was potentially lucrative enough that top Black athletes were willing to go through the brutality and other garbage because other opportunities were limited and the rewards were great. Now that there are so many other rewarding athletic opportunities for large-in-stature American Black men, they have largely abandoned the heavyweight boxing area, leaving the championships open to fighters who would have been no better than average 30 years ago.
Witness also American baseball, which for about 20 years was seen by Black American males as a good opportunity for fame and fortune. Now that population (top Black athletes) perceives that its best opportunities are in BB and Football, and they have largely abandoned baseball.
In Russia today, the top female athletes who do not devote their lives to gymnastics from an early age have very few sports to pursue, and tennis is a well-established avenue. In the U.S., they can play basketball, soccer, golf, tennis, softball, bowling, or a number of other minor sports, with reasonably good rewards - at least an easy college scholarship. Thus, tennis draws only a small fraction of the top American female athletes. (Kudos to the Wms sisters' dad, who saw the tremendous opportunity for his athletic daughters in a sport where few serious, talented athletes currently resided).
I suspect that tennis is by far the most promising sport for Russia's most gifted female athletes, followed by distance running.
The "Best Athlete" Theory
Every population as a certain number of people who are superior athletes. Think of Bo Jackson. Babe Didrickson. Albert Pujols.
These are people who have the strength, coordination, quickness, and possibly size to excel at just about any athletic activity they choose to pursue.
Each society has opportunities for achieving wealth, fame, and/or status through athletics, and the culture determines which of those are most "rewarding." They are different for woman and for men. The top athletes gravitate to the sports within their society that offer the greatest opportunities for reward, leaving the door open for lesser athletes in the other sports.
The best illustration of the phenomenon is in the heavyweight boxing division. For generations, the heavyweight champion of the world was a black, American man. The sport was potentially lucrative enough that top Black athletes were willing to go through the brutality and other garbage because other opportunities were limited and the rewards were great. Now that there are so many other rewarding athletic opportunities for large-in-stature American Black men, they have largely abandoned the heavyweight boxing area, leaving the championships open to fighters who would have been no better than average 30 years ago.
Witness also American baseball, which for about 20 years was seen by Black American males as a good opportunity for fame and fortune. Now that population (top Black athletes) perceives that its best opportunities are in BB and Football, and they have largely abandoned baseball.
In Russia today, the top female athletes who do not devote their lives to gymnastics from an early age have very few sports to pursue, and tennis is a well-established avenue. In the U.S., they can play basketball, soccer, golf, tennis, softball, bowling, or a number of other minor sports, with reasonably good rewards - at least an easy college scholarship. Thus, tennis draws only a small fraction of the top American female athletes. (Kudos to the Wms sisters' dad, who saw the tremendous opportunity for his athletic daughters in a sport where few serious, talented athletes currently resided).
I suspect that tennis is by far the most promising sport for Russia's most gifted female athletes, followed by distance running.
Re: American Tennis
The "invasion" of Russian women hasn't quite lived up to early expectations. They exploded onto the scene in 2004 (before that, no Russian woman had ever won a major), when Myskina won the French Open, Sharapova won Wimbledon, and Kuznetsova won the US Open.
But what has happened since then? Myskina retired. Sharapova won the US Open in 2006 and the Australian Open in 2008, and Kuznetsova won the French Open in 2009. And that's it. Of the 24 majors played in 2005-2010, Russian women won 3.
Contrast that against the most recent glory days of American women in tennis. From 1979 through 1985, American women won 6 of the 7 Australian Opens, 6 of the 7 French Opens, 6 of the 7 Wimbledons, and 6 of the 7 US Opens. And American women were the finalists -- that is, the final matches were contests between two American women -- in 5 of the 7 Australian Opens, 3 of the 7 French Opens, 6 of the 7 Wimbledons, and 5 of the 7 US Opens. (And from 1971 through 1987, American women won 14 of the 17 Wimbledons and 15 of the 17 US Opens.)
But tennis is mostly an individual sport. Except in the Olympics, the Davis Cup (men), and the Fed Cup (women), the players represent themselves, not their countries.
(If they did represent their countries, then in the aforementioned 5 of the 7 Australian Opens, 3 of the 7 French Opens, 6 of the 7 Wimbledons, and 5 of the 7 US Opens, the final matches were US vs. US.)
So the winning streaks of this country's players or that country's players are really the winning streaks of one or two (or occasionally three) individuals from this or that country. Thus:
From 1979 through 1985, the American women who won the Australian Open were Barbara Jordan, Martina Navratilova, Chris Evert, Martina Navratilova, Chris Evert, and Martina Navratilova.
The American women who won the French Open were Chris Evert, Chris Evert, Martina Navratilova, Chris Evert, Martina Navratilova, and Chris Evert.
The American women who won Wimbledon were Martina Navratilova, Chris Evert, Martina Navratilova, Martina Navratilova, Martina Navratilova, and Martina Navratilova.
And the American women who won the US Open were Tracy Austin, Chris Evert, Tracy Austin, Chris Evert, Martina Navratilova, and Martina Navratilova.
From 1999 through 2010, American women won 8 of the 12 Australian Opens. The winners were Lindsay Davenport, Jennifer Capriati, Jennifer Capriati, Serena Williams, Serena Williams, Serena Williams, Serena Williams, and Serena Williams.
American women also won 10 of the 12 Wimbledons. The winners were Lindsay Davenport, Venus Williams, Venus Williams, Serena Williams, Serena Williams, Venus Williams, Venus Williams, Venus Williams, Serena Williams, and Serena Williams.
Perhaps most strikingly, from 1982 through 1987, the US brought home all six Wimbledon trophies. The winners were Martina Navratilova, Martina Navratilova, Martina Navratilova, Martina Navratilova, Martina Navratilova, and Martina Navratilova.
And it isn't just American women. From 1988 through 1994, German and Yugoslavian women won all 7 Australian Opens: Steffi Graf, Steffi Graf, Steffi Graf, Monica Seles, Monica Seles, Monica Seles, and Steffi Graf. 5 of the 7 French Opens: Steffi Graf, Monica Seles, Monica Seles, Monica Seles, and Steffi Graf. 5 of the 7 Wimbledons: Steffi Graf, Steffi Graf, Steffi Graf, Steffi Graf, and Steffi Graf. 5 of the 7 US Opens: Steffi Graf, Steffi Graf, Monica Seles, Monica Seles, and Steffi Graf.
From 1969 through 1976, Margaret Court and Evonne Goolagong Cawley of Australia won 16 of the 32 majors and were runners-up in 12 of them.
Go back even further and, despite going back before the open era, you will find much the same thing: Not countries winning the biggest tournaments in the sport; people winning the biggest tournaments in the sport.
Good thing, too. Leave your flags at the door, and enjoy the sublime beauty of the game.
But what has happened since then? Myskina retired. Sharapova won the US Open in 2006 and the Australian Open in 2008, and Kuznetsova won the French Open in 2009. And that's it. Of the 24 majors played in 2005-2010, Russian women won 3.
Contrast that against the most recent glory days of American women in tennis. From 1979 through 1985, American women won 6 of the 7 Australian Opens, 6 of the 7 French Opens, 6 of the 7 Wimbledons, and 6 of the 7 US Opens. And American women were the finalists -- that is, the final matches were contests between two American women -- in 5 of the 7 Australian Opens, 3 of the 7 French Opens, 6 of the 7 Wimbledons, and 5 of the 7 US Opens. (And from 1971 through 1987, American women won 14 of the 17 Wimbledons and 15 of the 17 US Opens.)
But tennis is mostly an individual sport. Except in the Olympics, the Davis Cup (men), and the Fed Cup (women), the players represent themselves, not their countries.
(If they did represent their countries, then in the aforementioned 5 of the 7 Australian Opens, 3 of the 7 French Opens, 6 of the 7 Wimbledons, and 5 of the 7 US Opens, the final matches were US vs. US.)
So the winning streaks of this country's players or that country's players are really the winning streaks of one or two (or occasionally three) individuals from this or that country. Thus:
From 1979 through 1985, the American women who won the Australian Open were Barbara Jordan, Martina Navratilova, Chris Evert, Martina Navratilova, Chris Evert, and Martina Navratilova.
The American women who won the French Open were Chris Evert, Chris Evert, Martina Navratilova, Chris Evert, Martina Navratilova, and Chris Evert.
The American women who won Wimbledon were Martina Navratilova, Chris Evert, Martina Navratilova, Martina Navratilova, Martina Navratilova, and Martina Navratilova.
And the American women who won the US Open were Tracy Austin, Chris Evert, Tracy Austin, Chris Evert, Martina Navratilova, and Martina Navratilova.
From 1999 through 2010, American women won 8 of the 12 Australian Opens. The winners were Lindsay Davenport, Jennifer Capriati, Jennifer Capriati, Serena Williams, Serena Williams, Serena Williams, Serena Williams, and Serena Williams.
American women also won 10 of the 12 Wimbledons. The winners were Lindsay Davenport, Venus Williams, Venus Williams, Serena Williams, Serena Williams, Venus Williams, Venus Williams, Venus Williams, Serena Williams, and Serena Williams.
Perhaps most strikingly, from 1982 through 1987, the US brought home all six Wimbledon trophies. The winners were Martina Navratilova, Martina Navratilova, Martina Navratilova, Martina Navratilova, Martina Navratilova, and Martina Navratilova.
And it isn't just American women. From 1988 through 1994, German and Yugoslavian women won all 7 Australian Opens: Steffi Graf, Steffi Graf, Steffi Graf, Monica Seles, Monica Seles, Monica Seles, and Steffi Graf. 5 of the 7 French Opens: Steffi Graf, Monica Seles, Monica Seles, Monica Seles, and Steffi Graf. 5 of the 7 Wimbledons: Steffi Graf, Steffi Graf, Steffi Graf, Steffi Graf, and Steffi Graf. 5 of the 7 US Opens: Steffi Graf, Steffi Graf, Monica Seles, Monica Seles, and Steffi Graf.
From 1969 through 1976, Margaret Court and Evonne Goolagong Cawley of Australia won 16 of the 32 majors and were runners-up in 12 of them.
Go back even further and, despite going back before the open era, you will find much the same thing: Not countries winning the biggest tournaments in the sport; people winning the biggest tournaments in the sport.
Good thing, too. Leave your flags at the door, and enjoy the sublime beauty of the game.
Reason is valuable only when it performs against the wordless physical background of the universe.
Re: American Tennis
I happily watch 5-set matches, live and on tv. The other night I watched the 4 and half hour epic battle between Kuznetsova and Schavione in the Australian Open quarters that Andrew referenced in a different thread. I've been to many U.S. Open matches -- from wheelchair, to mixed doubles to the ladies final (I've watched both Venus and Kuznetsova win the title).
But talking about rivalries -- I highly recommend ESPN's 30 30 show Unmatched, about the rivalry (and friendship) between Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova. No two athletes have met in as many matches or world championships: 80 times over the course of 16 years, 60 of which were finals. For 12 consecutive years, from 1975 to 1986, either Evert or Navratilova finished the season ranked number one in the world. No other individual athletes in any sport, or any team comes even close to that kind of dominance.
But talking about rivalries -- I highly recommend ESPN's 30 30 show Unmatched, about the rivalry (and friendship) between Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova. No two athletes have met in as many matches or world championships: 80 times over the course of 16 years, 60 of which were finals. For 12 consecutive years, from 1975 to 1986, either Evert or Navratilova finished the season ranked number one in the world. No other individual athletes in any sport, or any team comes even close to that kind of dominance.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké
Re: American Tennis
Excellent point; this is a sport, not a test of which nation is the greatest. Does chauvinism have no bounds?Leave your flags at the door, and enjoy the sublime beauty of the game.
-
oldr_n_wsr
- Posts: 10838
- Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:59 am
Re: American Tennis
I root for who(m?) ever looks best in those tennis dresses.Does chauvinism have no bounds?
Re: American Tennis
There are five (5) American men among the top 100 players in the world. There are five (5) American women among the top 100 players in the world.
The dominance of Federer and Nadal cannot hide the fact that American men's tennis is in a pitiful state. And beyond the quickly-fading Williams sisters, the American women are in even worse shape.
My view is that other sports are attracting the top American athletes, thus relegating tennis to a lesser crew, which is not competitive internationally.
Clearly this is the case with soccer. I suggest that it is the same with tennis.
The future of tennis on TV has to be tenuous. Who cares which foreigners win the U.S. Open? Not many.
The dominance of Federer and Nadal cannot hide the fact that American men's tennis is in a pitiful state. And beyond the quickly-fading Williams sisters, the American women are in even worse shape.
My view is that other sports are attracting the top American athletes, thus relegating tennis to a lesser crew, which is not competitive internationally.
Clearly this is the case with soccer. I suggest that it is the same with tennis.
The future of tennis on TV has to be tenuous. Who cares which foreigners win the U.S. Open? Not many.
Re: American Tennis
My guess is those who like to watch tennis (ditto for soccer or cricket or the caber (sp?) toss). Those who want to sit and chant "USA...USA...USA" by rote are probably not among those who watch tennis, even when US players are among the top seeds.Who cares which foreigners win the U.S. Open?
Re: American Tennis
Yes, but to get truly good ratings (which allows for those great prizes), you need to draw in the casual fan. To do that you need to have stories. It is possible to develop interest in the U.S. for non-U.S. players, but it is generally a tougher chore to make that happen when there are few if any competitive Americans.
Re: American Tennis
While tennis is a sport of individuals, the number of individuals who rise to the top reflects a pyramid of terrific athletes trying to to get there. In the last decade, the only American male who has been a threat to win big tournaments is Andy Roddick. James Blake occasionally put it together to challenge in a tournament, but only broke into the top 5 one year (edited).
In contrast, in the 1990's, Pete Sampras, Andre Aggasi, Jim Courier and Michael Chang all won majors. And all, but maybe Chang, had more overall success than Roddick.
In the 80's, there was McEnroe and Connors, as well as Agassi by the end of the decade. And there were a host of players who won multiple tournaments and were ranked in the top 10 at some point (e.g., Jimmy Arias, Aaron Krickstein).
In the 70's, a similar story, with Jimmy Connors dominating, but also Arthur Ashe, Stan Smith and then McEnroe by the end of the decade.
In the last 5-6 years, for the U.S. men, there has been Roddick and an occasional player that puts a good tournament together (but doesn't win), and that has fallen off as Roddick's career arc seems to be heading down. For the first time in a long time, there has been an extended period where there is no U.S. man, let alone two or three or more, who is considered a top favorite in major tournaments. Similarly, there is no U.S. man who is ranked in the top 10. There is no doubt things are down for U.S. men tennis players. Not sure there is an easy answer why, but it is clearly how things are.
One take is that U.S. men just don't have the work ethic it takes: http://www.worldtennismagazine.com/archives/3175
In contrast, in the 1990's, Pete Sampras, Andre Aggasi, Jim Courier and Michael Chang all won majors. And all, but maybe Chang, had more overall success than Roddick.
In the 80's, there was McEnroe and Connors, as well as Agassi by the end of the decade. And there were a host of players who won multiple tournaments and were ranked in the top 10 at some point (e.g., Jimmy Arias, Aaron Krickstein).
In the 70's, a similar story, with Jimmy Connors dominating, but also Arthur Ashe, Stan Smith and then McEnroe by the end of the decade.
In the last 5-6 years, for the U.S. men, there has been Roddick and an occasional player that puts a good tournament together (but doesn't win), and that has fallen off as Roddick's career arc seems to be heading down. For the first time in a long time, there has been an extended period where there is no U.S. man, let alone two or three or more, who is considered a top favorite in major tournaments. Similarly, there is no U.S. man who is ranked in the top 10. There is no doubt things are down for U.S. men tennis players. Not sure there is an easy answer why, but it is clearly how things are.
One take is that U.S. men just don't have the work ethic it takes: http://www.worldtennismagazine.com/archives/3175
Re: American Tennis
Actually, there are six American women in the top one-hundred. That may not sound like much, but the US is tied with Italy for third place: Only Russia and the Czech Republic have more. Third place out of the thirty-three countries that have players in the top one-hundred seems pretty good to me.
And there are four American men in the top twenty. The US is tied with Spain for first place. First place out of the eleven countries that have players in the top twenty seems pretty good to me.
Of the twenty majors played in the past five years (2006-2010), American women have won eight (40%). That is well ahead of the Belgian women’s five (25%), the Russian women’s 3 (15%), the French woman’s 2 (10%), and the Italian and Serbian women’s one (5%) each. Showing once again that dominance in women’s tennis is about individuals, not countries, two American women (Serena Williams and Venus Williams) won those eight majors, two Belgian women (Kim Clijsters and Justine Henin) won those five majors, two Russian women (Svetlana Kuznetsova and Maria Sharapova) won those three majors, and one French woman (Amelie Mauresmo) won those two majors.
As dgs49 observes, men’s tennis has been dominated by Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal for some years. Of the twenty-eight majors played in the past seven years (2004-2010), they have won twenty-five (sixteen for Federer and nine for Nadal).
But these things come and go. Of the forty-eight majors played in the preceding twelve years (1992-2003), American men won twenty-five. No other country’s players were even close. And in the Open era, American men have won fifty-one titles at majors. No other country’s players have won even half that many.
All in all, although things could be better for American players, I’m not especially worried.
Of course, that may be because I don't much care. I watch tennis for the tennis.
And there are four American men in the top twenty. The US is tied with Spain for first place. First place out of the eleven countries that have players in the top twenty seems pretty good to me.
Of the twenty majors played in the past five years (2006-2010), American women have won eight (40%). That is well ahead of the Belgian women’s five (25%), the Russian women’s 3 (15%), the French woman’s 2 (10%), and the Italian and Serbian women’s one (5%) each. Showing once again that dominance in women’s tennis is about individuals, not countries, two American women (Serena Williams and Venus Williams) won those eight majors, two Belgian women (Kim Clijsters and Justine Henin) won those five majors, two Russian women (Svetlana Kuznetsova and Maria Sharapova) won those three majors, and one French woman (Amelie Mauresmo) won those two majors.
As dgs49 observes, men’s tennis has been dominated by Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal for some years. Of the twenty-eight majors played in the past seven years (2004-2010), they have won twenty-five (sixteen for Federer and nine for Nadal).
But these things come and go. Of the forty-eight majors played in the preceding twelve years (1992-2003), American men won twenty-five. No other country’s players were even close. And in the Open era, American men have won fifty-one titles at majors. No other country’s players have won even half that many.
All in all, although things could be better for American players, I’m not especially worried.
Of course, that may be because I don't much care. I watch tennis for the tennis.
Reason is valuable only when it performs against the wordless physical background of the universe.
Re: American Tennis
This may explain most of it. There are good American players now, but the best ones are just a bit shy of winning big tournaments. Part of that is playing in an era where two of the best players ever, Federer and Nadal, totally dominate. In addition, I think there are more countries with good development programs now than in the past, so it is not as easy to make the top 20. Still, it is a low tide of good American players.Andrew D wrote: But these things come and go.
Is this is just a statistical ebb and flow? I'm not sure. Demographically, we should be seeing a nice surge of top talent as the Baby Echo generation hits its athletic maturity. At a time when we would expect a rise in the number of top American players, we are actually seeing a substantial retreat.
Re: American Tennis
In tennis, it simply will not do to say that America has as many in the top ## as some other godforsaken country. The proper measure is the U.S. vs the R.O.W. We should have at least 4 or 5 of the top ten players carrying blue passports, both genders.