"Mass Casualty" High School Shooting In Florida...

[rubato]

The estimable S. Langhorne Clemens wrote of an incident in the silver rush in Nevada where a man with a revolver drew on a man with a rifle. The sheriff ruled it a suicide. Aside from the difference in accuracy the tissue damage done by a high-velocity round like a .223 is more than an order of magnitude worse than a handgun round. The shock wave from a 3200 fps bullet destroys tissue a long ways from the wound channel.


yrs,
rubato

[rubato]

First responders are not trained to be Rambo and charge into the line of fire, they are trained to CYA, cover your act, and not die foolishly on the theory that if the first responder is dead everyone else is worse off. Makes sense.

Aside from the complete stupidity of thinking that a 9mm is a reasonable weapon against an AR-15.

yrs,
rubato

[RayThom]

... Aside from the complete stupidity of thinking that a 9mm is a reasonable weapon against an AR-15.
yrs, rubato

It can be more than enough with the proper tactical training. Unfortunately, the urge for self-preservation (protecting and serving themselves) trumped all prior policing experience.

There are no easy solutions to these problems -- everyone has divergent opinions. We must strive to understand that cultural/generational change has to start somewhere. I say the time is nigh.

PS. I'm a sportsman and firearms owner and not some bleeding heart liberal. Sacrifice on both sides is key.

[Scooter]

Something that is done in some other school districts and which might have given confidence to police on the scene to enter the school, is to keep detailed floor plans of the school on file with the police, and to give the police access to live video feed of every room and corridor. Rather than forcing police to go in blind, I'd bet that such intelligence would make it a lot easier to take a shooter down with fewer casualties among students and responders, and in the scheme of things would not cost much.

[BoSoxGal]

RT, you are so full of shit on this point, seriously!

A school resource officer deals with belligerent teens who act out physically or druggie teens who get caught smoking pot in the bathroom. The average county deputy hasn’t had intensive SWAT type training, and even those LEOs who get that kind of training have to hone it on a very regular basis in order to have any chance of overcoming the body’s instinctive flight/fight hormone cascade and other physiological response that makes even the best trained firearms experts battle to get off true shots in the midst of absolute chaos and carnage.

This info is readily available all over the internet, from real life LEOs and military folks who are way more experienced with firearms than you or any of the rest of us here. 20/20 did a special on just that subject after one of the mass killings of the past few years, showing that even highly trained LEOs end up getting ‘killed’ or ‘killing’ numerous innocent bystanders in the midst of exactly the kind of situation this SRO would’ve faced if he’d run into that building with his dinky handgun.

It’s total bullshit Monday morning quarterbacking for a bunch of lazy asshats on the Internet to be condemning this poor SRO for taking up a defensive position and communicating with his backup rather than storming in and getting killed and leaving the backup to come on the scene blind. I feel sorry for the guy, he was a part of the school community and must be grieving tremendously and he is being reviled by people who buy into bullshit NRA propaganda about one good guy with a gun being all that is needed to stop a mass killer with a high powered semi automatic assault weapon of war.

The saddest thing is that the poor bastard probably now wishes he was dead, and I’d lay odds on him eating his gun in the not too distant future.

[Scooter]

[datsunaholic]

I've almost had to unfollow every "Republican" on my facebook feed (some of whom are pretty good friends otherwise) because of this debate.

Some of the ridiculous arguments:

1) There's no need to ban AR-15s... it's just a .22, people! 9mm rounds are almost twice as big and .45s are more than twice

- Yeah, because a .22 isn't deadly? Or the fact that a .223 cartridge has up to 3x the firing pressure and twice the velocity as a .22LR round?

2) Just because it LOOKS like a military weapon doesn't mean it is, there are plenty of semiautomatic hunting rifles that are just as deadly

- There's a reason that in the original assault weapons ban that the AR-15 was one of the ones banned- the pistol grip. Makes the weapon far more deadly because it's far easier to handle when moving. Generally not needed for hunting 4-legged critters, because shooting a spooked deer makes for bad venison. But an assault rifle is VERY good for shooting at running targets.


3) 2nd Amendment! Second Amendment! We need these weapons to protect ourselves from our own government if they turn on us!

- And you think that if the government turned on you it'd be a fair fight? Back when the amendment was written the difference between individual firearms and military firearms was basically whether or not you had a bayonet attached or not. When the war was over you'd use the same musket for hunting fowl. The firepower the US Military has far outstrips any firepower you and your buddies can come up with. Even your buddy with the Sherman Tank in his garage.

- Besides, how has "protecting yourself from the government" gone in the last 150 years? I seem to recall the US Govenment won the Civil War. Waco & Ruby Ridge didn't end well for them, either.

4) Taking guns away from law abiding citizens doesn't solve the problem!
- Well, first, who is going to take your guns away? Though I realize that's one of your prime arguments against registering firearms (the government can't take what they don't know you have, is that the idea?). Yeah, there are a lot of people calling for full bans on assault rifles, or even any semiautomatic firearm. But the MAJORITY of people want some sort of reasonable restrictions. The complaint that regulations only hurts law abiding citizens... well, the arms proliferation caused by the lack of reasonable regulations has ended up with the deaths of thousands of innocent people. How many of these mass murderers got their weapons ILLEGALLY? This isn't a breakdown of existing laws- it's the lack of any sort of reasonable laws in the first place. You don't need any training to own or use a gun. Hell, a lot of States don't even require you to have a PERMIT to carry concealed. That's not responsible gun laws.

[RayThom]

RT, you are so full of shit on this point, seriously! A school resource officer deals with belligerent teens who act out physically or druggie teens who get caught smoking pot in the bathroom. The average county deputy hasn’t had intensive SWAT type training, and even those LEOs who get that kind of training have to hone it on a very regular basis in order to have any chance of overcoming the body’s instinctive flight/fight hormone cascade and other physiological response that makes even the best trained firearms experts battle to get off true shots in the midst of absolute chaos and carnage. This info is readily available all over the internet, from real life LEOs and military folks who are way more experienced with firearms than you or any of the rest of us here. 20/20 did a special on just that subject after one of the mass killings of the past few years, showing that even highly trained LEOs end up getting ‘killed’ or ‘killing’ numerous innocent bystanders in the midst of exactly the kind of situation this SRO would’ve faced if he’d run into that building with his dinky handgun. It’s total bullshit Monday morning quarterbacking for a bunch of lazy asshats on the Internet to be condemning this poor SRO for taking up a defensive position and communicating with his backup rather than storming in and getting killed and leaving the backup to come on the scene blind. I feel sorry for the guy, he was a part of the school community and must be grieving tremendously and he is being reviled by people who buy into bullshit NRA propaganda about one good guy with a gun being all that is needed to stop a mass killer with a high powered semi automatic assault weapon of war. The saddest thing is that the poor bastard probably now wishes he was dead, and I’d lay odds on him eating his gun in the not too distant future.

If you say so.

[Burning Petard]

9mm out of an Auto pistol vs .223 out of an AR15? Gabrielle Giffords took a 9mm to her head at close range and is walking around talking about it today. Yes, she is severely damaged, but she survived. Yes, that is only one anecdotal example. But a Rifle is inherently easier to fire for effect than a pistol due to the biomechanics of holding each device. However, the .223 is rarely used for hunting anything beyond varmints, because of its LOW POWER compared to most any other modern hunting rifle round. The major reason for its use in so many mass killings (IMNSHO) is because of the fame and notoriety and all the cool gadgets you can bolt onto of this scary black rifle. Under the same cliched folk wisdom that "speak of the devil and he will appear" I am not about to discuss how to be more effective.

snailgate

[liberty]

RT, you are so full of shit on this point, seriously!

A school resource officer deals with belligerent teens who act out physically or druggie teens who get caught smoking pot in the bathroom. The average county deputy hasn’t had intensive SWAT type training, and even those LEOs who get that kind of training have to hone it on a very regular basis in order to have any chance of overcoming the body’s instinctive flight/fight hormone cascade and other physiological response that makes even the best trained firearms experts battle to get off true shots in the midst of absolute chaos and carnage.

This info is readily available all over the internet, from real life LEOs and military folks who are way more experienced with firearms than you or any of the rest of us here. 20/20 did a special on just that subject after one of the mass killings of the past few years, showing that even highly trained LEOs end up getting ‘killed’ or ‘killing’ numerous innocent bystanders in the midst of exactly the kind of situation this SRO would’ve faced if he’d run into that building with his dinky handgun.

It’s total bullshit Monday morning quarterbacking for a bunch of lazy asshats on the Internet to be condemning this poor SRO for taking up a defensive position and communicating with his backup rather than storming in and getting killed and leaving the backup to come on the scene blind. I feel sorry for the guy, he was a part of the school community and must be grieving tremendously and he is being reviled by people who buy into bullshit NRA propaganda about one good guy with a gun being all that is needed to stop a mass killer with a high powered semi automatic assault weapon of war.

The saddest thing is that the poor bastard probably now wishes he was dead, and I’d lay odds on him eating his gun in the not too distant future.

Yea, the guy should be given a medal for valor? If he had been trained and knew what he was supposed to do and he failed to do his duty, he is a coward. I would have done it even if I had to shit in my pants. If I had failed do it; I would place my gun on my heart and pull the trigger. Death is better than living without honor. Only death can restore honor.

But I do feel sorry for him; it is a terrible thing to know that you failed to do your duty! Hey, this is not like getting drunk and not showing up for show up for your wedding; how does one fix this.

This reminds me of Vietnam and the M16. I remember how many of you would denigrate it as made by Mattel Toy Company; you were wrong then and you a wrong now. I know the M16 well and the AR 15 is not much different. I was trained on the M16 and qualified as marksmen. At one time, I could completely break it down to the smallest component and put it back together. It is an exceptional gun, but it is not magic. A skilled marksman with a good hand gun can take out a person armed with an AR 15.

[liberty]

[

[Scooter]

"If...if...if..." What if none of the if's are true?

And Jesus H. Fucking Christ on a bicycle on Calvary, learn how to distinguish the freaking edit button from the quote button so you don't repost the same shit fifty times.

[liberty]

[Scooter]

Once again, editing stuff out after it has been responded to. Mark of someone with no sense of integrity or honour.

[Lord Jim]

Replacing the double post text with a simple "deleted, double post" rather than all the s would have sufficed lib...

Also for future reference, when you double post you have the option of deleting it completely by selecting the " X Delete" button. (If you do it before a follow-up is posted...It's common courtesy to remove double posts if you catch them in time.)

[rubato]

An ER radiologist on the difference between a .223 wound and a handgun wound:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... ns/553937/

Do read it.


yrs,
rubato

[Sue U]

well, the arms proliferation caused by the lack of reasonable regulations has ended up with the deaths of thousands of innocent people. How many of these mass murderers got their weapons ILLEGALLY? This isn't a breakdown of existing laws- it's the lack of any sort of reasonable laws in the first place.

This.

[BoSoxGal]

Worth a read:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washin ... -shooting/

[BoSoxGal]

Apparently Trump has grown a set since the Vietnam War:

Trump on Florida shooting: 'I really believe I'd run in there, even if I didn't have a weapon'

Oh, if only!



What a self-promoting piece of shit.

[Lord Jim]

'I really believe I'd run in there, even if I didn't have a weapon'

How could he possibly run with those terrible bone spurs?