"Mass Casualty" High School Shooting In Florida...

[Big RR]

But as an argument to arm young people to defend our rights, it speaks much more loudly.

[Scooter]

the important contributions that the men on that list are associated with came much later than 1776, so as an argument for "listening to young people" it really falls flat...

The contributions for which some of them were better known came later, but Alexander Hamilton was George Washington's chief aide during the Revolutionary War, Nathan Hale a key intelligence operative, Lafayette was made a major general upon joining with the Continental Army; all of these spoke more to their intelligence, leadership skills and other qualities, rather than to their ability to hold a gun.

[Scooter]

Here's a clue - when you have gun SELLERS saying that there needs to be better gun control, it's time for NRA and their Republican puppets in Congress and state legislatures to get on the train, get out of the way, or risk getting run over.

[Burning Petard]

Scooter, you are in Canada, a place known around the world for its polite and forgiving ways.

Here in the USA, (even North of Windsor Ontario) we are more abrasive. As Carl Sandberg said in one of his books, "In America one man is as good as another, and a damn sight better."

Since the killing of JFK there has been a constant growth in government regulations for the purchase of guns. There has also been a growing tally of the dead killed by guns.

In 1968 my wife gave me a small rifle for my birthday. We went together to a K-Mart store in Saginaw Michigan, which had advertised Ruger 10-.22 rifiles for sale, including a Tasco 4x scope sight with 3/4 inch tube. The rifles were displayed on a table for inspection by anyone. We opened every box on the table, looking for the one with the prettiest grain in the wood stock. On the next table was a display of .30 cal M1 Carbines, priced ten dollars more than the Rugers. The M1 Carbine had been used by the US military in WWII, Korea, and was issued to me as a US Army combat engineer in Germany in 1960 [but soon replaced by the M14 rifle] The Carbines there that day were coated in teflon to reduce corrosion and jamming. They were available in a choice of colors: brown, black, green, pink. They were military and functioned much like the modern AR15--semi-auto, removable box magazine in two sizes, 15 round and 30 round. They even had a bayonet mount. Military surplus ammo was cheap, about the same price as .22 rimfire. target ammo. Both came in boxes of 50. The M1 Carbine was about the same size and weight as an AR15.

We purchased the Ruger rifle. I still have it. Guns, with a little maintenance last a long time. We had to show proof of Michigan residence. No background check--none. Maybe there was an age requirement. I don't remember.

Nobody ever shot up a school with a .30 cal M1Carbine. "The Problem" of easy access to high capacity long guns is the visible and IMNSHO, trivial subject of great attention here and in news media in general. I say the real problem, the huge iceberg below the surface that too many people prefer to never observe, is why so many people today want to kill large numbers of people they don't even know. The guns to do mass shootings have been available for at least 70 years. Good Lord, anybody could buy a Tommy Gun, full auto .45 in 1929. The retaining wall to the left of the main entrance to the train station in Kansas City today still has the pockmarks of when a bunch of bad guys with tommyguns shot it out with the cops.

Why are American children killing other American children?

snailgate.

[liberty]

some liberals would refer to Communism as just another form of democracy

I have never heard of communism as referred to as any form of democracy, although I have heard many anti-communists referring to it as being a form of (indeed, according to many, the only form of)totalitarianism. Actually, however, it is neither, it is an economic system, just as capitalism is, and the political system associated with it can be totalitarian, democratic, or any other. While the Soviet and Chinese communist system were totalitarian, so is post communist Russia, and there are many non communist dictatorships throughout the world (many of them touted as US allies). As for personal freedom, neither the left nor the right has a very good record in that department.

I disagree on present day Russia. There is still some liberty in the country; individuals can own and possess fire arms for self-defense. That is not something you find in a totalitarian country unless it is for the members of the ruling party. There is a difference between authoritarian and totalitarian. Russia might be authoritarian but not totalitarian at this time.

Authoritarians don’t allow opposition to their law, but to the totalitarian obedience to their will is not enough you have to obey with the right attitude and with a smile on your face. At least the authoritarian allow your thoughts to be free. Perhaps hypothetically communism could be practiced in a democratic country but that wasn’t the case in the twentieth century.

Here is a Cold War ditty that explains how to deal with communist as we knew them:

I want to be an airborne ranger.
I want to fight in Vietnam.
I want to kill all the communist bastards.
I want to leave them for the rats and flies.

[Burning Petard]

It doesn't rhyme, it doesn't scan. Just what did 'airborne rangers' do in Vietnam? I know of no paratroop drop by the USA in that war.

snailgate

[Big RR]

actually the way I recall it :

I want to be an airborne ranger.
I want to go to Vietnam.
I want to live a life of danger
I want to kill old Charlie Cong

At least it rhymes

And do you actually think S Vietnam under Thieu or Diem was that much better? I know a bunch of people who went there who said they thought it was at least as bad (with the oppression of individual rights), if not worse

But that's what they were told to sacrifice their lives to fight for

[Scooter]

There is still some liberty in the country; individuals can own and possess fire arms for self-defense. That is not something you find in a totalitarian country

Uh, no, gun controls imposed in Germany during the Weimar Republic were relaxed under Nazi rule (except for Jews). In Fascist Italy, citizens were encouraged to be familiar with guns, and Fascist youth groups provided training in their use.

[Scooter]

And about that idea to arm teachers...

Teacher arrested after firing gun inside classroom at Georgia high school; no one hurt, police say

DALTON, GA.—A social studies teacher barricaded himself inside a classroom at a Georgia high school on Wednesday and fired a handgun once in what may have been a warning shot, authorities said.

No students were in the classroom at the time, and the only injury reported was a student who hurt her ankle running when Dalton High School was evacuated.

The teacher, Jesse Randal Davidson, was arrested without incident after a 30- to 45-minute standoff with officers, Dalton police spokesperson Bruce Frazier said. Davidson, 53, serves as the play-by-play announcer for the high school’s football team, police said in a tweet.

Police didn’t immediately say why Davidson fired the gun, but noted that he aimed away from anyone into an exterior window as the principal tried to unlock the classroom door. After the gunshot, the school was immediately placed on lockdown.

“I don’t know whether he was just firing the gun off to let people know to back off or what,” Frazier said.

It’s not clear what charges Davidson will face.

[Big RR]

It's not that--the arming of teachers is a way to game the system using statistics--the odds of having two persons armed in a school are almost infinitesimal compared with having only a single gunman, so if you arm the teachers (especially multiple teachers), the odds of another gunman being in the school go way down and the schools are safe. There's no arguing with the math.

I'm sure that's the way Trump understands it. It's about the only way arming teachers makes any sense (and just above zero sense at that).

[Scooter]

I figured it was one of two things:

(1) Something known by those proposing it to be a complete nonstarter, but put forward by them so they could pretend that they were trying to find a solution that did not involve any sort of gun control.

(2) A way to further enrich the gun industry by requiring school districts to purchase however millions of guns this would entail.

And I can't decide which, if true, would demonstrate the most cynicism.

[Econoline]

Here's a clue - when you have gun SELLERS saying that there needs to be better gun control, it's time for NRA and their Republican puppets in Congress and state legislatures to get on the train, get out of the way, or risk getting run over.

Sometimes a dick move is a good thing!

[Burning Petard]

Now Walmart has adopted the '21 and over policy" They already had stopped stocking the AR15 black gun look-alike a while back.

I suspect any schools that decide to have armed teacher will go something similar to the current practice in Texas.--the teachers provide their own gun and have to provide some documentation of training, at their own expense.

snailgate

[RayThom]

It's all "feel good" legislation.

Maximum School Safety? It's all smoke and mirrors. 5% ACTION... 95% REACTION. They can turn the school buildings into virtual prisons. Eventually all students must leave "en masse" to board buses home. A dedicated (re. suicidal) sicko can easily, and quickly, pick off any number of students in such a tight group. Yep, the shooter might receive his "suicide by cop" but he'll achieve all the "school shooting" goals stated in the twisted manifesto that he continually updated on Facebook.

The one thing we know as true? The killing will continue... only the scenarios will change. Comprehensive gun control is the only true answer -- not just those changes the NRA is now allowing their political puppets to cede to so they can save face under all the public outcry they're currently receiving. Keep in mind it's an election year.

MASA... Make America Sane Again!

[Big RR]

BP--what sort of "training" does Texas require? Firing a gun in a crowded school building under considerable stress is very different from shooting a stationary target on a range--I would think even police are trained not to fire under most circumstances in those situations, someone with a 3 hour gun safety course is likely to be more of a problem than a solution.

[Burning Petard]

I have no idea what training is required. I am pretty sure it is 'nominal' that is, barely more than don't look at the hole in the end and put your finger on the little hook thingie.

snailgate

Later Edit: It is called school marshal program. Here is a story from Dallas newspaperhttps://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/2018/ ... llows-sort

80 hours of classroom training, and the guns are NOT carried by the teachers.

[Big RR]

That's exactly what I thought; which is why it's such a bad idea IMHO. A minimally trained Walter Mitty Type teacher, thinking (s)he can save the kids and big the big hero, can end up doing more damage than the original shooter (not to mention what might happen one day when 9s)he gets pissed that a kid won't sit down).

[Econoline]

A minimally trained Walter Mitty Type teacher, thinking (s)he can save the kids and big the big hero, can end up doing more damage than the original shooter

I suspect that inserting that "(s)" in front of the "he" in that post was unnecessary.
(Me, sexist? Well, yeah...but only enough to conform with reality... )

[RayThom]

... I suspect that inserting that "(s)" in front of the "he" in that post was unnecessary.

Then there was this (s)he... whose name actually uses two esses.

Sylvia Seegrist -- she was big, local, news in her day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvia_Seegrist

[Bicycle Bill]

San Francisco cops fire 65 shots in 15 seconds
at murder suspect in dramatic video

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/01/sa ... video.html

"Nobody was struck by gunfire during this incident.  The evidence in the case so far indicates Armstrong fired two rounds from a weapon,
and that seven officers fired 65 rounds from their department-issued weapons," SFPD Commander Greg McEachern told KTVU.

That works out to nine rounds per man.  And that's from the people who are supposedly *TRAINED* in how to use their weapons?
Is this how the cops are now being trained to shoot?  Empty the magazine and hope at least one round finds its target?

Maybe we should arm the teachers ... they couldn't do any worse.

-"BB"-