US Open Controversy

Food, recipes, fashion, sport, education, exercise, sexuality, travel.
User avatar
Lord Jim
Posts: 29716
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:44 pm
Location: TCTUTKHBDTMDITSAF

US Open Controversy

Post by Lord Jim »

Several folks have made reference to this in other threads, so I thought I'd start a thread for it...

At this point I don't really have an opinion about it since I didn't watch the match and don't have enough objective info (about the ref's history, how common these calls are, etc.) to really opine with any degree of confidence about it...

Here's the article Guin posted in another thread. (obviously the author has a very strong POV):
Guinevere wrote:10/12 for 473 penalties that male tennis players should have received, but didn’t, because they are men.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washin ... story.html
Chair umpire Carlos Ramos managed to rob not one but two players in the women’s U.S. Open final. Nobody has ever seen anything like it: An umpire so wrecked a big occasion that both players, Naomi Osaka and Serena Williams alike, wound up distraught with tears streaming down their faces during the trophy presentation and an incensed crowd screamed boos at the court. Ramos took what began as a minor infraction and turned it into one of the nastiest and most emotional controversies in the history of tennis, all because he couldn’t take a woman speaking sharply to him.

Williams abused her racket, but Ramos did something far uglier: He abused his authority. Champions get heated — it’s their nature to burn. All good umpires in every sport understand that the heart of their job is to help temper the moment, to turn the dial down, not up, and to be quiet stewards of the event rather than to let their own temper play a role in determining the outcome. Instead, Ramos made himself the chief player in the women’s final. He marred Osaka’s first Grand Slam title and one of Williams’s last bids for all-time greatness. Over what? A tone of voice. Male players have sworn and cursed at the top of their lungs, hurled and blasted their equipment into shards, and never been penalized as Williams was in the second set of the U.S. Open final.

“I just feel like the fact that I have to go through this is just an example for the next person that has emotions and that want to express themselves and wants to be a strong woman,” she said afterward.

It was pure pettiness from Ramos that started the ugly cascade in the first place, when he issued a warning over “coaching,” as if a signal from Patrick Mouratoglou in the grandstand has ever been the difference in a Serena Williams match. It was a technicality that could be called on any player in any match on any occasion and ludicrous in view of the power-on-power match that was taking place on the court between Williams and the 20-year-old Osaka. It was one more added stressor for Williams, still trying to come back from her maternity leave and fighting to regain her fitness and resume her pursuit of Margaret Court’s record of 24 Grand Slam singles titles. “I don’t cheat,” she told Ramos hotly.

When Williams, still seething, busted her racket over losing a crucial game, Ramos docked her a point. Breaking equipment is a violation, and because Ramos already had hit her with the coaching violation, it was a second offense and so ratcheted up the penalty.

The controversy should have ended there. At that moment, it was up to Ramos to de-escalate the situation, to stop inserting himself into the match and to let things play out on the court. In front of him were two players in a sweltering state, who were giving their everything, while he sat at a lordly height above them. Below him, Williams vented, “You stole a point from me. You’re a thief.”

There was absolutely nothing worthy of penalizing in the statement. It was pure vapor release. She said it in a tone of wrath, but it was compressed and controlled. All Ramos had to do was to continue to sit coolly above it, and Williams would have channeled herself back into the match. But he couldn’t take it. He wasn’t going to let a woman talk to him that way. A man, sure. Ramos has put up with worse from a man. At the French Open in 2017, Ramos leveled Rafael Nadal with a ticky-tacky penalty over a time delay, and Nadal told him he would see to it that Ramos never refereed one of his matches again.

But he wasn’t going to take it from a woman pointing a finger at him and speaking in a tone of aggression. So he gave Williams that third violation for “verbal abuse” and a whole game penalty, and now it was 5-3, and we will never know whether young Osaka really won the 2018 U.S. Open or had it handed to her by a man who was going to make Serena Williams feel his power. It was an offense far worse than any that Williams committed. Chris Evert spoke for the entire crowd and television audience when she said, “I’ve been in tennis a long time, and I’ve never seen anything like it.”

Competitive rage has long been Williams’s fuel, and it’s a situational personality. The whole world knows that about her, and so does Ramos. She has had instances where she ranted and deserved to be disciplined, but she has outlived all that. She has become a player of directed passion, done the admirable work of learning self-command and grown into one of the more courteous and generous champions in the game. If you doubted that, all you had to do was watch how she got a hold of herself once the match was over and how hard she tried to make it about Osaka.

Williams understood that she was the only person in the stadium who had the power to make that incensed crowd stop booing. And she did it beautifully. “Let’s make this the best moment we can,” she said.

The tumultuous emotions at the end of the match were complex and deep. Osaka didn’t want to be given anything and wept over the spoil. Williams was sickened by what had been taken from her and also palpably ill over her part in depriving a great new young player of her moment. The crowd was livid on behalf of both.

Ramos had rescued his ego and, in the act, taken something from Williams and Osaka that they can never get back. Perhaps the most important job of all for an umpire is to respect the ephemeral nature of the competitors and the contest. Osaka can never, ever recover this moment. It’s gone. Williams can never, ever recover this night. It’s gone. And so Williams was entirely right in calling him a “thief.”
ImageImageImage

User avatar
Guinevere
Posts: 8990
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:01 pm

Re: French Open Controversy

Post by Guinevere »

Sweetie, it’s the United States Open.

But let’s not forget the French Open also castigated Serena for the black catsuit tennis apparel she wore in that tournament (after the Tournament ended) - which she was wearing because of the blood clots she suffered during her pregnancy and delivery.

And “the author” of the column is Sally Jenkins, one of the most respected sports journalists around.

ETA: Lord Jim originally posted this thread with the title “French Open.”
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

User avatar
Lord Jim
Posts: 29716
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:44 pm
Location: TCTUTKHBDTMDITSAF

Re: US Open Controversy

Post by Lord Jim »

Sweetie, it’s the United States Open.

But let’s not forget the French Open also castigated Serena for the black catsuit tennis apparel she wore in that tournament
Yeah, fixed that...(I believe I had the French Open dust up about the suit in mind when I experienced that brain fart.)

Here's a link to another article about it with more detail:

https://slate.com/culture/2018/09/seren ... -open.html
ImageImageImage

User avatar
Guinevere
Posts: 8990
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:01 pm

Re: US Open Controversy

Post by Guinevere »

Oh but the irony....

There are so many things that Slate piece gets wrong.

I watched the match. Sally said it all. So did Chris Evert and Serena herself. It’s about a double standard. I keep thinking what the Ump would have done if Roger had been playing and did those things and that answer is nothing more than a warning (except for the smashed racquet - which is a clear penalty and deservedly so, but that doesn’t result in a point or game being awarded to the opponent). No one holds his arrogant petulant aggressive youth against him. He is forgiven for every mistake, or misstep. He is allowed to have passion (so are all the men). Remember his pony tail and the swagger?? Novak and Rafa get extremely mouthy and use foul language, and barely even get warned. I hate how the world views and criticizes Serena. It offends me deeply. They will never let her forget she’s just a mouthy black kid from Compton. She deserves to be respected, and after 23 Grand Slam wins she still has to fight for everything because she is a strong, confident, outspoken, black woman in a body that is not a conventional tennis player body. It’s such crap and why I remind people over and over that the world has not changed near enough for women, even the privileged ones.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

wesw
Posts: 9646
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:24 am
Location: the eastern shore

Re: US Open Controversy

Post by wesw »

no, serena was getting her ass whupped, and took coaching and lied about it

she engaged in the usual dramatics that she uses to throw an opponent off when she is losing.

it usually works.

not this time.

serena usually uses the change over to intimidate her opponents too , barreling thru the small space if she gets the chance.

Osaka wasn t having it.

she would not even look at serena, once she stopped and waited at the net, straightening her strings, til serena passed, and once she walked all the way around the net and then crossed the court to her chair. brilliant...

and I love the way she slaps her leg to get the adrenaline flowing, I used to do that. I learned it from jimmy Connors.

Naomi won that match, decisively

serena is arrogant entitled and a drama queen. that is the only kinda queen she is, sespite her stupid commercials....

she cheated, lied, bullied the umpire, then cried like a little bitch when he stood up to her.

tough tittie.

wesw
Posts: 9646
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:24 am
Location: the eastern shore

Re: US Open Controversy

Post by wesw »

....on the other hand, her sister venus is one of the classiest players ever.

User avatar
Guinevere
Posts: 8990
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:01 pm

Re: US Open Controversy

Post by Guinevere »

I’m done here. I’m tired of the sexism, and the racism, and being called a “whore,” not to mention other nastiness. I’m not typically a tiara tosser, when I walk away I walk away and don’t make a big deal about it. But I’m not going to be silent as to why (nor am I going to get down into the mud with the pigs, either). I think it’s interesting that almost every woman who posted here has stopped, some after very long periods as active members.

Au revoir.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

User avatar
Lord Jim
Posts: 29716
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:44 pm
Location: TCTUTKHBDTMDITSAF

Re: US Open Controversy

Post by Lord Jim »

Now I'm sorry I started this thread...

I really wasn't trying to stir up trouble; I had just noticed people talking about it in other threads, and because of that, I thought I would start a thread focused on the topic...

Apparently that wasn't such a great idea... :?
ImageImageImage

wesw
Posts: 9646
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:24 am
Location: the eastern shore

Re: US Open Controversy

Post by wesw »

maybe it is because other women call them cunts.....

your arguments hold no water.

you call names as much as the next person.

you insult and denigrate anyone who disagrees with you.

I do tend to agree that this place is not good tho....

I was consciously staying out of political conversations until scooter the shitbird saw fit to turn a nice thread into a shitshow too....

so I re entered the fray

put on your big girl pants , penelopie......

wesw
Posts: 9646
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:24 am
Location: the eastern shore

Re: US Open Controversy

Post by wesw »

don t bother leaving , guin.

I ll go

that is what a gentleman should do

I will say that if you can t stand the heat.......

anyway, it is your kitchen, you can serve shit sandwiches if you want

don t expect me to swallow them tho

all these white people in one place makes me a bit uncomfortable anyway..... 8-)

User avatar
MajGenl.Meade
Posts: 21233
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Groot Brakrivier
Contact:

Re: US Open Controversy

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

wesw - what vile slime you do post.


It was a shame, but I didn't think the Slate piece was wrong at all. The umpire should probably have ignored the obvious sign given by Ms. William's coach - it was blatant advice to move closer to the net, as the coach later confessed - lauding himself for being honest.

That the player saw his hands moving is without doubt - TV showed her look to the box (and why should she not? There's no rule about looking) and she claimed she saw a "thumbs-up", also harmless - so those who say she did not look or could not see that far are simply ignoring what Ms. Williams said. Her coach was cheating and his story is "everyone else does it". I doubt she needed any coaching advice - she's been playing outstanding tennis for years, thank you very much.

The umpire interpreted that exchange (player/coach) as an unsportsmanlike violation of rules. But the coach doesn't get a warning because he's not playing; unfortunately, Ms. Williams is the only candidate for the penalty which is, after all, just a warning - nothing more.

Ms. Williams's unfortunate reaction was an escalation that cost her dearly and spoiled the game. What followed the warning is all on her.

I've not seen similar scenes since McEnroe's heyday but enjoyed watching him being penalized for being an arse. If it's the case that male tennis players (Roger?) are constantly ragging on the umpires, then they should indeed suffer the consequences. I'm all for it.

I also appreciated that the young Japanese lady was able to play winning tennis without shrieking or grunting - I'm sick of men and women sounding as if they have a bowel-movement every time they swing a racquet.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

User avatar
Crackpot
Posts: 11551
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:59 am
Location: Michigan

Re: US Open Controversy

Post by Crackpot »

Guin don’t leave just ignore Wes. Leaving because of him and liberty give them more power than they deserve.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

User avatar
dales
Posts: 10922
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:13 am
Location: SF Bay Area - NORTH California - USA

Re: US Open Controversy

Post by dales »

What Crackpot said.

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


yrs,
rubato

User avatar
RayThom
Posts: 8604
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:38 pm
Location: Longwood Gardens PA 19348

US Open Controversy

Post by RayThom »

Years ago, Guin and one of here online chat buddies once labeled me a "nasty, little, man."

She may never have changed her mind about me -- and that's OK. Hey... opinions -- everybody has one, or many. Regardless, I never took her criticism to heart and always looked forward to her erudite POV.

There are not enough women on board in these forums -- sophisticated, or otherwise. I'd hate to see her go.

"Can We All Just Get Along?" Rodney King
Image
“In a world whose absurdity appears to be so impenetrable, we simply must reach a greater degree of understanding among us, a greater sincerity.” 

User avatar
Joe Guy
Posts: 15115
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:40 pm
Location: Redweird City, California

Re: US Open Controversy

Post by Joe Guy »

MajGenl.Meade wrote: I'm sick of men and women sounding as if they have a bowel-movement every time they swing a racquet.
I agree. Who started that? Do they think it helps them?

That's why I don't watch tennis.

User avatar
RayThom
Posts: 8604
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:38 pm
Location: Longwood Gardens PA 19348

US Open Controversy

Post by RayThom »

Joe Guy wrote:
MajGenl.Meade wrote: I'm sick of men and women sounding as if they have a bowel-movement every time they swing a racquet.
I agree. Who started that? Do they think it helps them?
That's why I don't watch tennis.
See 'factoid' #5.
Image
Image
“In a world whose absurdity appears to be so impenetrable, we simply must reach a greater degree of understanding among us, a greater sincerity.” 

User avatar
Lord Jim
Posts: 29716
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:44 pm
Location: TCTUTKHBDTMDITSAF

Re: US Open Controversy

Post by Lord Jim »

If it's the case that male tennis players (Roger?) are constantly ragging on the umpires, then they should indeed suffer the consequences. I'm all for it.
That's what it's starting to look like to me; that the bigger problem here may be that male players aren't receiving the penalties they should be getting...

Here's what I take to be the complete quote of what Williams said to the umpire that drew the third penalty:
“You will never, ever, ever be on another court of mine as long as you live. You are the liar. When are you going to give me my apology? You owe me an apology. Say it. Say you’re sorry,” Williams then told Ramos. “And you stole a point from me. You’re a thief, too.”
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/t ... 248947002/

That looks to me like threatening, taunting, bullying and insulting all rolled into one...

In my opinion, NO player, male or female, superstar or unranked, should be permitted to engage in that level of verbal abuse and harassment (or worse, as some male players have come forward saying they have gotten away with saying) towards an official. It's extremely unsportsmanlike, and to permit it to go on unpenalized sets a very bad example for young people and reflects very poorly on the management of the sport. And the higher the level of competition, the less it should be tolerated.

If male players are berating officials this way and getting a way with it, then shame on the powers that be in pro tennis for not bringing the hammer down on them. The word should go out to all officials on the pro circuit that this kind of harassment will no longer be tolerated, and that any player engaging in it is to be penalized. Period, no exceptions. Officials who fail to do so should themselves be penalized.

If this is done, eventually it will sink in that this type of unsportsmanlike boorish rhetoric is unacceptable, and the sport will be much the better for it.
ImageImageImage

User avatar
Joe Guy
Posts: 15115
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:40 pm
Location: Redweird City, California

Re: US Open Controversy

Post by Joe Guy »

Thanks, Ray. So, it's kinda like the concept of a laugh track and it's to let the people watching on TV know when the player is trying to hit a tennis ball real hard.

I'd like to have that sound effects job. I'd throw in a few farts and maybe a belch or two and a few BOING!s when the the ball comes off the racquet.

User avatar
BoSoxGal
Posts: 19705
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:36 pm
Location: The Heart of Red Sox Nation

Re: US Open Controversy

Post by BoSoxGal »

I didn’t watch the match, so have only seen the bits and pieces as the aftermath is discussed on TV.

I feel terrible for the young lady who won - I had to scroll back to recall her name, Naomi Osaka, which was also an afterthought in the mouths of many of the TV commentators today on the many programs rehashing the incident.

Some guy who is a former tennis player of some merit - I don’t recall the name, if he was famous it wasn’t when I was following the game closely, and I won’t bother to look it up and give him the attention because his comments disgusted me - defended the referee and said there was no sexism involved whatsoever and in having the conversation with the female anchor on CNN, he referred several times (I am not making this up) to the men and GIRLS of tennis.

I mean, WTF?!?! :loon

What is also sad is the I know Serena Williams will spend much more time feeling badly about the way this incident clouded Ms. Osaka’s first ever grand slam win than any of the officials will spend feeling badly about the sexism inherent in the sport. That’s the saddest thing.




And finally - yes, this place is pretty sexist. I know I will be booed and likely name-called for saying it - I’ve said it before and endured the slings and arrows. This place is also pretty racist - as evidenced by more than one recent thread.

It’s no secret that Guin and I aren’t great friends, but I do wholeheartedly support her in stating this obvious truth - like so many other places in our world, Plan B is largely an old (white) boys’ club. For women to participate here and glean the nuggets of insight and good humor that are posted, they must also endure a lot of sophomoric sexism spewed by otherwise highly intelligent men who probably believe that they really respect the women here and the women and girls in their real lives - yet continue on in life spewing the kind of sophomoric sexist ‘humor’ that is one of the foundations for the ongoing demeaning of women in all areas of our human society.

So we beat on . . .
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

User avatar
RayThom
Posts: 8604
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:38 pm
Location: Longwood Gardens PA 19348

US Open Controversy

Post by RayThom »

BoSoxGal wrote:... And finally - yes, this place is pretty sexist. I know I will be booed and likely name-called for saying it - I’ve said it before and endured the slings and arrows. This place is also pretty racist - as evidenced by more than one recent thread.

It’s no secret that Guin and I aren’t great friends, but I do wholeheartedly support her in stating this obvious truth - like so many other places in our world, Plan B is largely an old (white) boys’ club. For women to participate here and glean the nuggets of insight and good humor that are posted, they must also endure a lot of sophomoric sexism spewed by otherwise highly intelligent men who probably believe that they really respect the women here and the women and girls in their real lives - yet continue on in life spewing the kind of sophomoric sexist ‘humor’ that is one of the foundations for the ongoing demeaning of women in all areas of our human society.
So we beat on . . .
BSG, just don't threaten to check out. I'll try to behave myself the best I can.

I am not a dick.
Image
“In a world whose absurdity appears to be so impenetrable, we simply must reach a greater degree of understanding among us, a greater sincerity.” 

Post Reply