Some Vegans are Nuttier than Fruitcakes

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Joe Guy
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Some Vegans are Nuttier than Fruitcakes

Post by Joe Guy »

Just when I think I've gotten to the point where I've heard everything, I am once again reminded that I'll never reach that point.

If you don't eat honey because you are a vegan, avocados might be off-limits, too.

Maura Judkis, The Washington Post Published 9:37 am PDT, Wednesday, October 17, 2018

One thing that most sensible people can agree on — whether they're vegan, meat-eaters, paleo, keto or whatever food tribe they happen to belong to — is that avocados are delicious.

But there's a paradigm-shifting debate online about the very nature of avocados that could make some of the eaters who appreciate them the most renounce them. Depending on how strict their definition of veganism is, some vegans may be dismayed to learn that the avocado-almond milk smoothies they've been drinking might – gasp — not be so vegan after all.

Vegans eschew not only products made from animals, such as bacon and leather, but also products made by animals - the most obvious examples being milk and butter. For some vegans, this extends to honey, because it is produced from the labor of bees. Honey-avoiding vegans believe that exploiting the labor of bees and then harvesting their energy source is immoral - and they point out that large-scale beekeeping operations can harm or kill bees.

So why are avocados problematic? As the website the Conversation (and the British quiz show QI) points out, some avocados (and almonds) are produced by the work of bees, too. Honeybees pollinate many of our favorite fruits and vegetables, but in much of the United States, there are not enough bees to do this job naturally or efficiently. So farmers employ a practice called migratory beekeeping: They truck hives into their fields, where the bees live for short periods to pollinate the crops during the plants' most fertile window. An in-depth article from Scientific American outlines just how important this practice is to farming and what effect it has on our ecosystem. The magazine estimated that without migratory beekeeping, the United States would lose one-third of its crops.

And it does involve cruelty to bees, according to Scientific American: "Forcing bees to gather pollen and nectar from vast swaths of a single crop deprives them of the far more diverse and nourishing diet provided by wild habitats. The migration also continually boomerangs honeybees between times of plenty and borderline starvation. Once a particular bloom is over, the bees have nothing to eat, because there is only that one pollen-depleted crop as far as the eye can see. When on the road, bees cannot forage or defecate. And the sugar syrup and pollen patties beekeepers offer as compensation are not nearly as nutritious as pollen and nectar from wild plants." Not to mention, the commingling of bees from across the country in the same farms spreads disease, which can lead to colony collapse disorder.

But here's what the debate hasn't mentioned: Avocados and almonds aren't the only crops that are pollinated in this manner. Migratory beekeeping is a slippery slope that - for those who wish to avoid it - could change the scope of veganism. Other fruits and vegetables that may be produced through migratory pollination include apples, plums, cherries, alfalfa, blueberries, watermelon, cantaloupe, cucumbers, pumpkin, lettuces, squash and tangerines. Not every item in these categories is produced in this manner, but unless a vegan were to know the practices of the farm of origin, they would have no way of knowing whether bees were exploited in the making of that squash salad.

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals has a strong stance against honey. "These tiny animals are factory-farmed, much like chickens, pigs, and cows are," says the organization's page on honeybees. "Avoid honey, beeswax, propolis, royal jelly, and other products that come from bees." The PETA website also includes a roundup of "the best vegan recipes for avocado lovers," including chocolate avocado pudding and tofu-stuffed avocados.

PETA sent The Washington Post a statement about its stance on migratory beekeeping: "Going vegan is about making kind choices that bring about positive change. Average shoppers can't avoid produce that involved migratory beekeeping any more than they can avoid driving on asphalt, which has animal ingredients - but they can save nearly 200 animals' lives every year by choosing plant-based foods instead of meat, eggs, and dairy 'products,' " said PETA Executive Vice President Tracy Reiman.

Asked to clarify how migratory beekeeping is different from honey, given that bees are mistreated in both cases, PETA senior media liaison Catie Cryar wrote in an email that, while it's difficult to avoid fruits and vegetables that have been created through migratory beekeeping, "everyone can easily avoid honey, which is made by bees for bees, and instead enjoy delicious vegan options such as agave nectar." Veganism "shouldn't be about adhering to rigid dogma for dogma's sake but rather about making choices that bring about positive change. Ideally, the use of products that involve harming animals should be avoided, but it's impossible to be 100 percent 'pure,' " she said.

Veganism may be the most philosophical of all diets, thanks to the constant moral relativist quandaries it entails. Some studies have questioned whether insects, particularly bees, are capable of feeling pain. And others - even such vegan groups as Direct Action Everywhere - point out that a vegan diet is hardly "cruelty free," in that it involves the exploitation of migrant farmworkers or the potential poisoning via pesticides of wild animals that live near farms. Veganism cannot eliminate suffering, but its adherents can feel like they have not personally contributed to it.

So will vegans give up their avocado salads? Maybe the most hardcore ones will. But those who want to continue to slurp avocado smoothies have PETA's blessing — as long as they don't put honey in them.
source

Until I hear an actual bee address this issue and make a logical argument for boycotting honey, avocados and whatever else, I will not be shamed into avoiding honey and avocados by free-the-bee vegan activists.

wesw
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Re: Some Vegans are Nuttier than Fruitcakes

Post by wesw »

are you a vegetarian, joe?

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Joe Guy
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Re: Some Vegans are Nuttier than Fruitcakes

Post by Joe Guy »

No, I'm not a vegetarian. I'm an omnivorous heterosexual.

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Re: Some Vegans are Nuttier than Fruitcakes

Post by wesw »

i d like to eat a Dungeness crab and see a redwood.

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Re: Some Vegans are Nuttier than Fruitcakes

Post by wesw »

I may never see a redwood, but if I get my ford running right and tagged, I m gonna go see the Angel oak, in SC , I think.

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=ht ... mrc&uact=8

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Re: Some Vegans are Nuttier than Fruitcakes

Post by rubato »

Beekeepers feed bees in periods when there is not enough honey flow. In fact almonds provide pollen but not enough nectar to keep bee colonies going so the are fed sugar solutions then.

In parts of Canada beekeepers kill off their hives before winter and then buy new bees the next spring because it is too cold for them to survive the winter. Some, I am told, have winter hives in the walls of a house so they are somewhat heated from one side.

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Burning Petard
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Re: Some Vegans are Nuttier than Fruitcakes

Post by Burning Petard »

Sure, I can understand how real Vegans want to avoid the exploitation of other living things. There are lots of fruits and vegetables that depend on pollination from honey bees. And what about Tofu if it is made with papain or proteases?

Yes, life is hard when you try to live driven by ultra-orthodox or fundamentalist anything.

snailgate

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Re: Some Vegans are Nuttier than Fruitcakes

Post by rubato »

I had a vegan carpool partner who said that hummingbird feeders were morally wrong.

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Re: Some Vegans are Nuttier than Fruitcakes

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I can’t see why they would be - UNLESS s/he meant all the idiots who put out carcinogenic dyed ‘nectar’ for the hummingbirds instead of 1/4 cane sugar/H2O, or the other (sometimes same) idiots who let the feeders fill with mold that sickens and sometimes kills them.

Was this person opposed to feeding wild birds in general? Feeding the birds - responsibly - is one of the great joys of my life.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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Joe Guy
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Re: Some Vegans are Nuttier than Fruitcakes

Post by Joe Guy »

Hummingbird feeders are are filled with junk food. The sugar isn't good for hummingbird's teeth and they could become diabetic later in life.

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Re: Some Vegans are Nuttier than Fruitcakes

Post by BoSoxGal »

The Audubon Society endorses responsible feeding of wild birds including hummingbirds, as do the ornithological experts at Cornell University.

That MIGHT be because sugar water nectar contains FRUCTOSE, just like FLOWERS do. :loon

Yes, flower nectar also contains amino acids and micronutrients, minerals, proteins, etc. That’s why hummingbirds instinctively seek out flower nectar in addition to any ‘free’ fructose provided by humans - which is most appreciated in my area early in the season when little is in bloom. Hummers also eat sap, insects, and other stuff in nature.

I’ll happily go head to head with anybody here on all things birds; I have shelves of books on ornithology, I’m a bird watcher and amateur ornithologist and am well educated on our feathered friends - though there is always more to learn.

JG your silly posts raises an interesting point; animals in nature don’t eat themselves into obesity even in times of abundance. Obesity generally only occurs in domesticated animals fed and constricted by humans, or semi-tame wild animals that accept food from humans - lots of city pigeons get overweight, for instance.

Food for thought.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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dales
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Re: Some Vegans are Nuttier than Fruitcakes

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There's nothing under the sun that BSG is not an expert.

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


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Some Vegans are Nuttier than Fruitcakes

Post by RayThom »

dales wrote:There's nothing under the sun that BSG is not an expert.
/s?
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“In a world whose absurdity appears to be so impenetrable, we simply must reach a greater degree of understanding among us, a greater sincerity.” 

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Re: Some Vegans are Nuttier than Fruitcakes

Post by BoSoxGal »

dales wrote:There's nothing under the sun that BSG is not an expert.
Don’t be a twat. I’m not expert at much, but the things I do know, I know. I’m not ashamed of that, nor should I be.

Funny how it’s perfectly ok for the men here to be authoritative in making assertions about the things THEY [think they] know, but when I do - I’m a target for belittling.

I’m sure that has nothing whatsoever to do with sexism. :roll:
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

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dales
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Re: Some Vegans are Nuttier than Fruitcakes

Post by dales »

Whatever. :roll:


eta: you seem to see "sexism" behind every bush.

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


yrs,
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Re: Some Vegans are Nuttier than Fruitcakes

Post by BoSoxGal »

dales wrote:Whatever. :roll:


eta: you seem to see "sexism" behind every bush.
There is a plenty of it here, as has been pointed out by other women posters, too. I’ll trust my judgment and theirs over yours, thanks very much - it’s not for the offenders to define the offenses.

But don’t worry dales; in order to avoid offending you with my distaste for your nastiness toward me, I’ll simply stop reading your posts altogether. It’s no loss to me whatsoever. :fu
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan

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datsunaholic
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Re: Some Vegans are Nuttier than Fruitcakes

Post by datsunaholic »

The whole point of a forum is to view different ideas. You don't have to be an expert to post.

dales wrote:Whatever. :roll:


eta: you seem to see "sexism" behind every bush.
That's because there is. I know I'm making an effort to change from being a sexist pig, and have a long way to go. If you don't want to change, fine, but don't expect women to just "accept" that behavior anymore. The tide's a comin'.
Death is Nature's way of telling you to slow down.

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dales
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Re: Some Vegans are Nuttier than Fruitcakes

Post by dales »

I'm sorry you feel that way BSG.

You seem so easily offended by not only myself but other posters here.

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


yrs,
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dales
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Re: Some Vegans are Nuttier than Fruitcakes

Post by dales »

datsunaholic wrote:The whole point of a forum is to view different ideas. You don't have to be an expert to post.

That's because there is. I know I'm making an effort to change from being a sexist pig, and have a long way to go. If you don't want to change, fine, but don't expect women to just "accept" that behavior anymore. The tide's a comin'.
You don't know me and am not a sexist pig.

At least I hope not. :nana

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


yrs,
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Re: Some Vegans are Nuttier than Fruitcakes

Post by wesw »

ok Datsun.....

....are you really giving advice about women?

;)

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