I understand your point, Snailgate. I'm saying that even though you may be correct about the (incorrect) usage of "Race", the definition of the word 'racism' hasn't changed. Would you admit that I might at least be technically correct?Burning Petard wrote:"Race" when used in discussions in the USofA is a term defined socially and idiosyncratically. It has no objective meaning that is generally accepted for an extended period of time. Joe, do you want me to cite for you the sober, 'civil' discussions in mass media in America in the previous century that specifically defined people from Ireland, Sicily, Poland as 'non-White"?
How Can CNN Call the Political Ad 'Racist'?
Re: How Can CNN Call the Political Ad 'Racist'?
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Sue U
- Posts: 8932
- Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:59 pm
- Location: Eastern Megalopolis, North America (Midtown)
Re: How Can CNN Call the Political Ad 'Racist'?
First, you'd have to figure out what a "race" is. And that can't be defined because there simply is no such thing. It's a social construct that changes with the social demands of the day. Race is a phony concept, and racism is the stupidity it spawned. It's pointless to argue whether an ad is "racist" as a subset of "bigoted."
Last edited by Sue U on Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
GAH!
Re: How Can CNN Call the Political Ad 'Racist'?
Okay, thanks. I thought that Caucasian, Asian, Negroid and a couple others that I'm too lazy to look up were the races. I guess that's not true anymore.
Now the question is, if you can't define the races, how can anyone be racist?....
Now the question is, if you can't define the races, how can anyone be racist?....
Re: How Can CNN Call the Political Ad 'Racist'?
Why don’t you just use the synonyms already recognized by language experts who edit dictionaries and thesauruses: bigotry, xenophobia, prejudice.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan
~ Carl Sagan
Re: How Can CNN Call the Political Ad 'Racist'?
No, you’ve been pissing on people’s legs over CNN’s use of the word racism WHICH IS A SYNONYM for bigotry, xenophobia and prejudice IN REAL WORLD USE.
You’re just being an asshole for the sake of loving the smell of your own shit.
You’re just being an asshole for the sake of loving the smell of your own shit.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan
~ Carl Sagan
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Sue U
- Posts: 8932
- Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:59 pm
- Location: Eastern Megalopolis, North America (Midtown)
Re: How Can CNN Call the Political Ad 'Racist'?
Joe, your question is answered in my late edit to my last post. Race and racism are social constructs that change to meet the social demands of the day. To the extent someone adheres to any concept of "race" as some actual thing that defines people in any meaningful way, s/he is a racist.
GAH!
Re: How Can CNN Call the Political Ad 'Racist'?
Ha! Nice deletion of post, motherfucker. That’s underhanded and definitely the behavior of an asshole.
eta: This post in respond to Joe’s deleting his in which he stated ‘that’s what I’ve been saying all along.’
eta: This post in respond to Joe’s deleting his in which he stated ‘that’s what I’ve been saying all along.’
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan
~ Carl Sagan
Re: How Can CNN Call the Political Ad 'Racist'?
Yes, I deleted that post and it is what I've been saying. I deleted the post because I'm turning off my computer and I didn't want to drag this on anymore tonight. Say what you will... I'm gone for now.BoSoxGal wrote:Ha! Nice deletion of post, motherfucker. That’s underhanded and definitely the behavior of an asshole.
eta: This post in respond to Joe’s deleting his in which he stated ‘that’s what I’ve been saying all along.’
Thanks again, Sue. Your ideas make a lot of sense.
Re: How Can CNN Call the Political Ad 'Racist'?
Saying that racism is a social construct is exactly what I’ve been saying and Scooter was saying, too - but because you’re just stuck on being an asshole and flinging poop, you can’t acknowledge that.
What a sorry manchild.
What a sorry manchild.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan
~ Carl Sagan
Re: How Can CNN Call the Political Ad 'Racist'?
And I want to thank you for doing that Joe...I'm starting a separate thread based on this article posted in the Time For A Democratic Majority In The House thread by Lord Jim
It was nice to have a discussion about the election results as they were unfolding without everything that has been posted in this thread being in the middle of that discussion...
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ex-khobar Andy
- Posts: 5727
- Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2015 4:16 am
- Location: Louisville KY as of July 2018
Re: How Can CNN Call the Political Ad 'Racist'?
In Joe’s defense, I think that what he was making was a purely semantic point. I don’t believe for a second that Joe thinks that, say, the majority of Mexicans are rapists or cop killers - nor do I think that he is a bigot.
Long months ago, during the first week of Trump’s presidency, we had the Muslim ban. It was called that because Trump called it that during the campaign. This was wrong, the courts called it wrong, and it was withdrawn. Was it racist? The convenience of the racism label is that we’re all against it; so it helps to have a classification of such a political event (the Muslim travel ban) which unites its opposition. And there is no doubt that, whether it meets the dictionary definition or not, the human impulses behind the travel ban (Muslims are, or tend to be, terrorists) are the very same ones which kept Jim Crow going so long (black people are unhealthy and not as smart as ‘us’). But the majority of citizens of several of the countries subject to the travel ban (Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Syria and Libya) are Caucasian, just like me and Trump and, I suspect, many of the people who read these posts..
Whether or not the travel ban was racist in a dictionary sense is a sterile argument. My OED (1933 vintage) isn’t much help because the words racism and racialism (the word we were more used to in the sixties) do not appear. The word itself did not exist when my parents were growing up although the KKK of course did. I don’t have an electronic copy of To Kill a Mockingbird to hand, but I’m pretty sure that the words racism and racist were not used in 1930s Georgia. That absence in itself is interesting, because it helps to make the point that racism, as we now understand it, is a social construct.
Antisemitism in its classic form was based on such things as the blood libel (Jews eat Christian children) and, more recently, the vile Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion (side note here: my copy of this iniquitous document has an introduction by Henry Ford) which purported to show how Jews were going to take over the world. Are Jews a race? Well, Hitler thought so although most scholars (i use the term very loosely) of the time thought that they were a subset of the Caucasian race. Hitler famously self identified as Aryan, and just to bring this thing full circle the Aryan racial classification was, before the Nazi interpretation and since then, identified as Indo-Iranian.
Bearing in mind that racism is a social construct, I think that the travel ban is racist. I think that the anti-caravan movement is racist. Clearly the sentiment that, for example, I won’t make a wedding cake for you because you are gay, springs from the same well. Is it racist? Probably not, if you ask me today. Try me again in ten years.
Long months ago, during the first week of Trump’s presidency, we had the Muslim ban. It was called that because Trump called it that during the campaign. This was wrong, the courts called it wrong, and it was withdrawn. Was it racist? The convenience of the racism label is that we’re all against it; so it helps to have a classification of such a political event (the Muslim travel ban) which unites its opposition. And there is no doubt that, whether it meets the dictionary definition or not, the human impulses behind the travel ban (Muslims are, or tend to be, terrorists) are the very same ones which kept Jim Crow going so long (black people are unhealthy and not as smart as ‘us’). But the majority of citizens of several of the countries subject to the travel ban (Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Syria and Libya) are Caucasian, just like me and Trump and, I suspect, many of the people who read these posts..
Whether or not the travel ban was racist in a dictionary sense is a sterile argument. My OED (1933 vintage) isn’t much help because the words racism and racialism (the word we were more used to in the sixties) do not appear. The word itself did not exist when my parents were growing up although the KKK of course did. I don’t have an electronic copy of To Kill a Mockingbird to hand, but I’m pretty sure that the words racism and racist were not used in 1930s Georgia. That absence in itself is interesting, because it helps to make the point that racism, as we now understand it, is a social construct.
Antisemitism in its classic form was based on such things as the blood libel (Jews eat Christian children) and, more recently, the vile Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion (side note here: my copy of this iniquitous document has an introduction by Henry Ford) which purported to show how Jews were going to take over the world. Are Jews a race? Well, Hitler thought so although most scholars (i use the term very loosely) of the time thought that they were a subset of the Caucasian race. Hitler famously self identified as Aryan, and just to bring this thing full circle the Aryan racial classification was, before the Nazi interpretation and since then, identified as Indo-Iranian.
Bearing in mind that racism is a social construct, I think that the travel ban is racist. I think that the anti-caravan movement is racist. Clearly the sentiment that, for example, I won’t make a wedding cake for you because you are gay, springs from the same well. Is it racist? Probably not, if you ask me today. Try me again in ten years.
Re: How Can CNN Call the Political Ad 'Racist'?
It's a lot of effort to go through to make a purely semantic point. Do I think Joe is some sort of unreconstructed racist? Absolutely not. But he sure spends a lot of time insisting that certain behaviours are not racist when the people against whom they are directed, and a lot of others, believe that they are. What does that mean? I have no idea. Most of the time it comes across as wanting to be contrarian for its own sake, because he does it on so many other types of topics as well.
When it's coupled with the accusation that people are just throwing around the racism label because they are wallowing in their own victimhood, that's something else altogether; it's more of a sociopathic inability to feel empathy.
When it's coupled with the accusation that people are just throwing around the racism label because they are wallowing in their own victimhood, that's something else altogether; it's more of a sociopathic inability to feel empathy.
"The dildo of consequence rarely comes lubed." -- Eileen Rose
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Burning Petard
- Posts: 4443
- Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 5:35 pm
- Location: Near Bear, Delaware
Re: How Can CNN Call the Political Ad 'Racist'?
Anti-semitism is another word, like 'gay' or 'queer' that has been pre-empted by a particular political agenda to destroy it's perfectly useful meaning.
Semitic | səˈmidik |
adjective
1 relating to or denoting a family of languages that includes Hebrew, Arabic, and Aramaic and certain ancient languages such as Phoenician and Akkadian, constituting the main subgroup of the Afro-Asiatic family.
2 relating to the peoples who speak Semitic languages, especially Hebrew and Arabic.
Hatred is a basic human behavior that may be hard-wired to protect we against them. There is constant language battle with each side changing the nomenclature in an almost magical faith that changing the word will change the behavior. But the behavior is hate. Never using 'the N word' does not remove the hate, it only displaces it into dog whistle terms that each side still recognizes as hateful.
snailgate.
Semitic | səˈmidik |
adjective
1 relating to or denoting a family of languages that includes Hebrew, Arabic, and Aramaic and certain ancient languages such as Phoenician and Akkadian, constituting the main subgroup of the Afro-Asiatic family.
2 relating to the peoples who speak Semitic languages, especially Hebrew and Arabic.
Hatred is a basic human behavior that may be hard-wired to protect we against them. There is constant language battle with each side changing the nomenclature in an almost magical faith that changing the word will change the behavior. But the behavior is hate. Never using 'the N word' does not remove the hate, it only displaces it into dog whistle terms that each side still recognizes as hateful.
snailgate.
Re: How Can CNN Call the Political Ad 'Racist'?
I have cousins that I've been close with all my life who are 1/2 Mexican. Their father, my closest and favorite Uncle (married to my Mother's sister) was Mexican. My closest friend is Nicaraguan. And if I believe my updated Ancestry.com results, I'm 42% Spanish instead of 50% Italian. It's the non-Latino people in my family that I don't trust...ex-khobar Andy wrote:In Joe’s defense, I think that what he was making was a purely semantic point. I don’t believe for a second that Joe thinks that, say, the majority of Mexicans are rapists or cop killers - nor do I think that he is a bigot.
The effort I exerted in this thread was necessary to counter the attacks from you and BSG. Rather than deal with the subject, you both assumed I was here to troll the board and acted accordingly. In the 'DeSantis' thread, I said what I still believe to be true. I can't help that I'm in the minority with that opinion, but I thought the idea here is to discuss varying opinions, not agree on everything.Scooter wrote:It's a lot of effort to go through to make a purely semantic point. Do I think Joe is some sort of unreconstructed racist? Absolutely not. But he sure spends a lot of time insisting that certain behaviours are not racist when the people against whom they are directed, and a lot of others, believe that they are........
What I learned from Sue and couldn't dig out of yours & BSG's posts is that my understanding that races were divided into a few categories, such as Negroid, Caucasian, Asian, Australoid, American Indian, Pacific Islander (and sometimes 'Y') are the defining racial categories is not true now - or never was - although I believed they were. So, I was making a point based on what I believed to be the facts and wanted to know what others thought of CNN's statement.
Now my feelings are hurt and I'm going to put everyone on "Foe" except for Sue U and maybe Lord Jim...
Re: How Can CNN Call the Political Ad 'Racist'?
I guess that means I'm on probation...I'm going to put everyone on "Foe" except for Sue U and maybe Lord Jim...
I'll try to walk the straight and narrow...
Re: How Can CNN Call the Political Ad 'Racist'?
Yes, Jim. You probably should just agree with me for a while. Since you're on probation I can 'Foe' you without cause.
Re: How Can CNN Call the Political Ad 'Racist'?
And you wonder why I think you’re an asshole?
Having a non-white ethnic background or relatives or friends who are non-white ethnicity in no way prevents a person from being a bigot; many of the Hispanics I met living in southern Arizona were virulently prejudiced against African-Americans. I hope you don’t mean to suggest that only 100% Caucasian people can be bigots.
Of course you won’t answer this since I’m on your foes list now - a status quo I’m perfectly happy with.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan
~ Carl Sagan
Re: How Can CNN Call the Political Ad 'Racist'?
My Foe List comment wasn't serious and I thought that would be obvious to everyone.
My reference to relatives and friends being Hispanic was a response to ex-khobar Andy's post that I quoted above it.
It's okay that you think I'm an asshole. You're entitled to your opinion no matter how emotionally influenced it may be. At this point I could probably write a lengthy post on all your (assuming there is) good traits and you would find something wrong with it.
My reference to relatives and friends being Hispanic was a response to ex-khobar Andy's post that I quoted above it.
It's okay that you think I'm an asshole. You're entitled to your opinion no matter how emotionally influenced it may be. At this point I could probably write a lengthy post on all your (assuming there is) good traits and you would find something wrong with it.
Re: How Can CNN Call the Political Ad 'Racist'?
‘Emotionally influenced’? What is that, an assertion that I’m somehow incapable of making a RATIONAL determination about your character based on your behavior here, in particular your pattern of bashing anybody who sees racism or bigotry in any situation?
Tell me, Joe - are my determinations emotionally influenced because I’m a woman and blood comes out of my wherever, or is it because I suffer from an autoimmune illness so therefore somehow I’m a person less capable of rational thinking?
Tell me, Joe - are my determinations emotionally influenced because I’m a woman and blood comes out of my wherever, or is it because I suffer from an autoimmune illness so therefore somehow I’m a person less capable of rational thinking?
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan
~ Carl Sagan
Re: How Can CNN Call the Political Ad 'Racist'?
Please give a list of individuals that I've bashed here for seeing racism. I'm assuming by 'in any situation' you mean in any specific situation, not every situation. Because the people that I criticize are people in general who seem to blame everything bad in the world on others and manage to be or to point out the victims and think no further than that.BoSoxGal wrote:‘Emotionally influenced’? What is that, an assertion that I’m somehow incapable of making a RATIONAL determination about your character based on your behavior here, in particular your pattern of bashing anybody who sees racism or bigotry in any situation?
Your 'determinations' are emotionally influenced because you are an emotional person. You can blame it on something else but I'm not.BoSoxGal wrote:Tell me, Joe - are my determinations emotionally influenced because I’m a woman and blood comes out of my wherever, or is it because I suffer from an autoimmune illness so therefore somehow I’m a person less capable of rational thinking?