Bill Of Impeachment: Article I, Obstruction Of Justice

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ex-khobar Andy
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Re: Bill Of Impeachment: Article I, Obstruction Of Justice

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

From the piece BSG linked:
Mueller had to be careful and precise because every word he said would be dissected. When he agreed with Rep. Ted Lieu (D-Calif.) that the reason he did not “indict Donald Trump is because of the OLC [Office of Legal Counsel] opinion stating you cannot indict a sitting president,” many took that to mean that Mueller had affirmatively concluded that he would have indicted Trump if he could do so. Mueller clarified that point in the afternoon session. It was a rare misstep and he knew he had to fix it without regard to how it might be perceived by either side.
Mueller had to clarify because it was already being misinterpreted. I took him at his literal word from the outset:that he did not indict Trump because he was not allowed to is simply not the same statement as he would have indicted if he had been allowed to. He knew (and we can quarrel with the OLC opinion but Mueller did not have that option) that he could not so he did not make an attempt to make a determination on that issue. That's not a misstep if some people cannot follow simple logic.

I agree that Mueller, although occasionally confused (I was shouting the word 'conspiracy' at the screen while he was searching for it) did well. If the questioner referred to Page # inthe question, Mueller had to be given the time to find that. It might have helped to have a couple of assistants - one for the questioner who knew what the reference would be and one for Mueller to find the page - that would have speeded the process. And don't forget that all the questioners had their stuff written down while Mueller was thinking about each and every answer while he was searching for the reference. I thought he did well. The five minutes each format is not conducive getting to the truth.

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Re: Bill Of Impeachment: Article I, Obstruction Of Justice

Post by Econoline »

Big RR wrote:Econo--my guess is that, rather than refuse to hold a full trial, the Senate would either have a show trial and acquit (which is kind of like what happened with Clinton because the outcome was pretty clear from the outset--although here the republicans wanted all the evidence brought out on live TV) or would refuse to take testimony and hold a hearing resulting in a summary dismissal (much as a court might do), saying the evidence brought forth by the House was not sufficient to warrant a removal from office. Either way, while still pretty provocative, would not be as blatant as just refusing to hold the trial at all. How the people would react to either (or to any refusal to hold an immediate trial) is the kicker here--and who knows?
After impeachment by the House, isn't the trial in the Senate run by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court...and *NOT* by the Senate Majority Leader? Actually, what *IS* the Majority Leader's role in an impeachment trial?
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Re: Bill Of Impeachment: Article I, Obstruction Of Justice

Post by Big RR »

My recollection )from the Clinton impeachment hearings) is that the Senate "runs" the trial and the Chief Justice rules on evidentiary and other legal issues. Whether such rulings are binding on the Senate, I do not know (because the CJ has no power I am aware of to enforce them against the senate proceedings); but the Constitution gives the power of removal solely to the Senate. The Vice President presides, but I would think the majority leader has a lot to say about who gets to speak and who yields time, etc. Could the Senate hold a summary hearing and just refuse to remove Trump after a House impeachment? I do not know for certain, but I don't see anything preventing them from doing it.

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Re: Bill Of Impeachment: Article I, Obstruction Of Justice

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

According to Wikipedia, on Clinton's trial:
The Senate trial began on January 7, 1999, with Chief Justice of the United States William Rehnquist presiding. The first day consisted of formal presentation of the charges against Clinton, and of Rehnquist swearing in all arguants in the trial.

Thirteen House Republicans from the Judiciary Committee served as "managers", the equivalent of prosecutors: Henry Hyde (chairman), Jim Sensenbrenner, Bill McCollum, George Gekas, Charles Canady, Steve Buyer, Ed Bryant, Steve Chabot, Bob Barr, Asa Hutchinson, Chris Cannon, James E. Rogan and Lindsey Graham.

Clinton was defended by Cheryl Mills. Clinton's counsel staff included Charles Ruff, David E. Kendall, Dale Bumpers, Bruce Lindsey, Nicole Seligman, Lanny A. Breuer and Gregory B. Craig.[24]

A resolution on rules and procedure for the trial was adopted unanimously on the following day; however, senators tabled the question of whether to call witnesses in the trial. The trial remained in recess while briefs were filed by the House (January 11) and Clinton (January 13).
I don't know how much of that process is laid down in the laws (?regulations?) and how much is made up as they go along. I suspect, as Big RR suggested, that Mitch would try to have a lot to do with the format.

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Re: Bill Of Impeachment: Article I, Obstruction Of Justice

Post by Big RR »

As I recall, the Senate has a set of rules for all impeachment trials. You are correct that the CJ presides over a trial of a president in the Senate, but I do not believe the CJ has any power over the actions of the Senate (which can vote, in closed session) to overrule any ruling of the presiding officer. It is also likely that the CJ could issue subpoenas/warrants on behalf of the senate to compel some to testify. Hapiily, there havenot been a lot of presidential impeachments, so the rules are not fully developed.

the point is, however, that impeachment is not a trial in the way we ordinarily think of one; it is a political process wherein an individual is removed from office at the pleasure of the legislature. The House an Senate both have rules they follow, but these can be changed by the bodies themselves, and there is no requirement of objective fairness (other than that which the public/voters may demand) and, contrary to what Trump (and his shill Dershowitz) stated a while back, there is no right of appeal.

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Re: Bill Of Impeachment: Article I, Obstruction Of Justice

Post by Econoline »

People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
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Re: Bill Of Impeachment: Article I, Obstruction Of Justice

Post by Econoline »

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Re: Bill Of Impeachment: Article I, Obstruction Of Justice

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I’d be hard pressed to find anyone I respect less than Mitch.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Re: Bill Of Impeachment: Article I, Obstruction Of Justice

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Coin toss?
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Re: Bill Of Impeachment: Article I, Obstruction Of Justice

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Donnie at least doesn’t try to hide what he is.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Re: Bill Of Impeachment: Article I, Obstruction Of Justice

Post by Bicycle Bill »

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Yes, I suppose I could agree with you ... but then we'd both be wrong, wouldn't we?

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Re: Bill Of Impeachment: Article I, Obstruction Of Justice

Post by Econoline »

Crackpot wrote:I’d be hard pressed to find anyone I respect less than Mitch.
I agree. Most of the time it appears that Trump really doesn't know what he's doing. McConnell knows exactly what he's doing, and doesn't care.
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Re: Bill Of Impeachment: Article I, Obstruction Of Justice

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

I agree. His major achievement for Kentucky seems to be that he got hemp re-legalized in a Farm Bill which has helped some farmers who used to grow tobacco. I approve of that: the criminalization of hemp was just silly even if you think that MJ should be illegal.

He seems to be proudest of delivering the SCOTUS seat to Trump through refusing to allow a debate on Garland. Of course liberals were pissed at this but that is a badge of honor as far as he and his ilk are concerned. I've no doubt it was legal but so are lots of things I don't do or condone. I would have liked to see Gorsuch and Kavanaugh being asked in their confirmation hearings what they thought of the whole thing. Maybe they were and I missed it. I think it was traitorous: I have nothing against anyone who, for sincerely held reasons - even if wrong - opposed Garland. But to use the powers of his office to just refuse to consider it was/is to me a threat to the meaning of the republic and the concept of democracy and hence very dangerous to the country. I don't think that can be overstated.

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Re: Bill Of Impeachment: Article I, Obstruction Of Justice

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The other one I have heard that may or may not take off as well is "Leningrad Lindsey".
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Re: Bill Of Impeachment: Article I, Obstruction Of Justice

Post by Econoline »

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Re: Bill Of Impeachment: Article I, Obstruction Of Justice

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Bill Of Impeachment: Article I, Obstruction Of Justice

Post by RayThom »

How rude. The Fancy Farm crowd behaved as though Moscow Mitch had nothing good to say.

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Re: Bill Of Impeachment: Article I, Obstruction Of Justice

Post by ex-khobar Andy »

I didn't realize Fancy Farm (Ray's post) had national visibility. To me it is just a local event (I haven't been) with talks from all comers and some good natured jeering and heckling. It's a bit of a rite of political passage arund here.

I was astonished to see this photo of the guys in Team Mitch T-shirts. That's a cardboard cut out of Alexandria Ocasio Cortez they are groping / strangling. One can dismiss it with 'how fucking puerile' but don't these guys read the papers? Al Franken was tossed from the senate for something, in my view, equally juvenile but far less serious.

I hope that McConnell is condemning them and demanding the return of his T-shirts.

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Re: Bill Of Impeachment: Article I, Obstruction Of Justice

Post by Big RR »

Weren't Franken accusations based on behavior to real women and not cardboard cutouts? I can't see how you could characterize them as "far less serious than this idiocy". Not that I'm defending them or the stupidity to taking the photo, but I see abuse (however defined) against real persons as more serious than against a cardboard cutout.

I recall a number of years ago when Dos Equis was using the "most interesting man in the world" promotion, a Mexican restaurant and bar had a full size cut out of him; every time I was ibn there, I would see one or two people punch the cutout's head; it got so bad they had to reinforce it, but people still punched it (and broke the reinforcing sticks. But IMHO it was a lot less serious than, say, if they punched the bartender.

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Re: Bill Of Impeachment: Article I, Obstruction Of Justice

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Franken was booted on the account of wa picture that while it was a real woman looked to be a forced perspective job (see anyone holding up the leaning tower of Pisa)
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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