Wrestling with his faith

[Lord Jim]

the closer a “christian” is to atheism,

You hadn't been around here much till recently, Gen'l....

You missed the discussion we had a little while ago where several people seriously advanced the position that it wasn't even necessary to believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ to be a "Christian", and certainly not necessary to believe in The Resurrection....

All that was necessary was to believe that Jesus is, I believe the term was...."A really cool dude"....

Someone equated the belief in the divinity of Christ as being on the same level as the belief that women were "chattel".....Since most Christians no longer embrace that idea, they could just as easily abandon the idea of Christ's divinity.....

All of this prompted me to ask if anyone thought that it was possible to be a "Christian" without even believing in God...

I got a response back from someone, (it may have been Big RR, I wouldn't swear to that) to the effect of they wouldn't "judge" anyone on that and that was a personal decision.....

I didn't get around to asking the next logical question.....

Could one worship The Great Horned One and still be a "Christian"?....

Though I have no doubt that if I had, there would have been some who would have been willing to allow for that possibility....

You'll find the definition of what can constitute a "Christian" to be extremely uh, "inclusive" 'round these parts.....

[Gob]

I should more accurately have said: “IMO good parents would not permit a girl to wrestle boys” which is what was meant.

Why?

[Sean]

Sean: perhaps I didn’t explain properly. The principle involved is either that the girl alone should decide – or that my view or your view or someone else’s view should prevail. You choose to draw the line at boxing. The grounds that “they might get hurt” are precisely those on which you say I am not allowed to draw the line at wrestling. (I agree they shouldn’t box, of course). Your decision is no more or less arbitrary than my own. It is just a different sport that you would deny to females.

Let's be straight here Meade, I didn't deny boxing or any other sport to females. You brought boxing into this discussion and I simply pointed out that I thought it was an unfair comparison. I did not offer any opinion on boxing. The words "They might get hurt" are NOT mine. I have now explained this twice, and will not be explaining again. If you choose to carry on with this then you are on your own but frankly I think that such 'debating' methods are beneath you.

[Sean]

I should more accurately have said: “IMO good parents would not permit a girl to wrestle boys” which is what was meant.

Why?

Because it's wrong to use the word "unparental" but okay to judge people as bad parents simply because their views differ from yours...

[MajGenl.Meade]

[quote="SeanLet's be straight here Meade, I didn't deny boxing or any other sport to females. You brought boxing into this discussion and I simply pointed out that I thought it was an unfair comparison. I did not offer any opinion on boxing. The words "They might get hurt" are NOT mine. I have now explained this twice, and will not be explaining again. If you choose to carry on with this then you are on your own but frankly I think that such 'debating' methods are beneath you.[/quote]

Sean - evidently I put a wrong interpretation on "Oh and boxing is a bit different...etc". I thought you were saying that because girls might get hurt in boxing, where the objective is indeed to hurt the other person, the case for not allowing them to participate was different to the situation in wrestling. However......

You have clarified (as above) and I now understand that you did not mean that girls should not box because they might get hurt.


Yes. It was wrong of me to say "unparental". That word logically implies far more than the single issue of permitting a daughter to wrestle with men. It would tend to indicate that a person was not a fit parent in general, which was not what was meant.

Yes. I am permitted to have an opinion that a good parent would not allow a daughter to wrestle men. I am sure there are numerous examples you could give of things that "good' parents should not do. These things are "wrong" or "right" according to what some person (or people) think - for no other reason, according to atheists. All "rights" and "wrongs" are societal constructs - that is, they are determined by what people think.

A good parent does most things very well but some things incorrectly. There is no perfect parent. I do not count myself as a good parent by the way since I walked out on a five-year old and no amount of "good" decisions after that can ever make up for what I did. Next to that, girls wrestling boys is pretty small beer.

Gob: please review. Not everything in the world has an explanation that you (or I) would agree "proves" the issue beyound doubt. It is fruitless to insist upon a practical reason (with which we will agree) for a moral decision (with which we don't agree). It is morally wrong for a girl to wrestle a boy. Permitting a daughter to do so is a wrong parenting decision. That's my opinion.

Cheers
Meade

[Gob]

Gob: please review. Not everything in the world has an explanation that you (or I) would agree "proves" the issue beyound doubt. It is fruitless to insist upon a practical reason (with which we will agree) for a moral decision (with which we don't agree). It is morally wrong for a girl to wrestle a boy. Permitting a daughter to do so is a wrong parenting decision. That's my opinion.

Cheers
Meade

It'd be a boring place here if we didn't try to justify our moral choices Meade old bean.

I profoundly disagree with you on the "wrongness" of permitting a daughter to wrestle boys (not men, Meade, boys). It is also a sport we are talking about, so where is the moral wrongness. is it in the physical contact, or are you saying it is wrong in terms of competative ethos?

Having said that, I'm doing my damnest to stop Hatch getting too interested in wrestling boys just yet.

[The Hen]

Despite how strong she appears, and how strong she is, I would not want the Hatch competing against boys in any chosen physical sport.

It is wrong because I do not think you can match male and female physiques, by way of strength and endurance, and have an equal platform.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Gob - the answers are: "yes +"

[Big RR]

It is wrong because I do not think you can match male and female physiques, by way of strength and endurance, and have an equal platform.

Hen--what if she could be an effective competitor as this young woman was? She apparently won 20 matches and qualified for the state championship. When I was in high school one of our best gymnasts had only one leg; he worked on developing his upper body and was fairly successful, although he always lost points on the dismounts. Landing on an artificial leg didn't make for an "equal platform", but this young man chose to compete on this level and not in some special league where the competitors all had physical disabilities, with considerable success (including placing in the state championships for 3 years). Would this have been a problem for you if you were his parent?

[MajGenl.Meade]

Big RR

Not for me it wouldn't. Good luck to the young man.

I'm sorry that you and I have fallen out (again).
Cheers
Meade

[oldr_n_wsr]

few sports which cater pretty much exclusively to girls/women without a boys/men's equivalent.

My high school had a girls lacrosse team but not a guys. I tried to joint he girls team but they wouldn't let me.

[dgs49]

The muscular and strength differences between girls and boys are not just a sociological construct. They are real and demonstrable.

All other things being equal, a well-conditioned, 5'4", 130 lb man will be dramatically stronger than a well-conditioned, 5'4", 130 lb woman. The proof of this is available at any fitness club in the world, every day. Have you all forgotten the phenomenon we witnessed many years ago when firefighter strength tests were "womanized" because none of the women could carry the dummy up the stairs?

Which is why it is not fair or reasonable to have them competing against each other in track or swimming - sports where physical size is theoretically irrelevant (a point I tried to make earlier, without success).

If this girl "won" 20 matches against boys in her same weight class, it is simply inconceivable that those matches were legitimate. The only place where girls can beat boys in a fight are in fiction (TV, movies, and video games). Even womens' self-defense courses concede that the only hope a woman has in defending herself against a male attacker is a quick blow to a vital organ, followed by a frantic sprint to safety. The matches where the girl wrestler won against boys were either de facto conceded or the boys merely pretended to wrestle with her.

A pox on her parents. They are not only misguided idiots, but they are placing her at risk of totally-unnecessary injury through their abject refusal to BE PARENTS. It is precisely these situations in which parents are required to step up and tell the child, "I completely realize and understand what you WANT, but I know better and I forbid it."

[The Hen]

It is wrong because I do not think you can match male and female physiques, by way of strength and endurance, and have an equal platform.

Hen--what if she could be an effective competitor as this young woman was? Would this have been a problem for you if you were his parent?

Yes. I would not want her competing against a male for the reasons given above.

Call me tainted, but I once competed against a male in a strength competition and was slaughtered. True he was stronger and I was dumber ....

[Jarlaxle]

Which is why it is not fair or reasonable to have them competing against each other in track or swimming - sports where physical size is theoretically irrelevant (a point I tried to make earlier, without success).

That is because (wait for it) the point you tried to make was WRONG! The point is, again and still, wrong.

My brother can't begin to keep up with my wife...my brother is an active-duty Marine Corps NCO currently serving in Afghanistan. She could--easily--pass the Marine PT regimen. She does a job every day that I suspect you, DGS, could NOT do.

[Long Run]

If this girl "won" 20 matches against boys in her same weight class, it is simply inconceivable that those matches were legitimate.

Two points: 1) there is a lot of skill and technique involved in wrestling, so it is possible she can win even if she is not as strong as most of her competitors; and 2) you are correct that we don't know the quality of opponents against whom she built up the record, but she is one of only two girls in the state's history to have made state, so I assume it was against standard competition. According to the state tournament results, she (Herkelman) lost her next match on points (5-1). The boy (Northrup), was in consolation and won a match, then lost.

The MOTU of high school wrestling have decided that it is reasonably safe for girls to wrestle boys (similar decision for football). The article says there are 6,000 girls who wrestle in high school in the U.S. compared to 275,000 boys. Up to this point, there have not been enough girls to have girl only wrestling, even in Iowa, which is why they have allowed girls to wrestle with the boys. I saw an article where they may try to develop a girls-only division.

I support both the boy and the girl in their decision making. If you read the full story, you see the boy's father is a minister in a church which, per the pastor, is strongly against him wrestling a girl. Regarding letting the team "down", I don't see how this is any different than if he were an observant Jew and would not wrestle on the Sabbath. As to the team, it is made up of individuals trying to do their best for themselves, and we do not know if they had another 112-pounder capable of making state so it is pure conjecture whether he took away an opportunity for another wrestler from his team to score points for the school.

[Big RR]

FWIW, when my daughter was in 9th grade (and a gymnast) she held the school record for pullups (37) of the entire school (both boys and girls), a record which I don't think has been broken to this day (6 years later). There are exceptions to every rule, and different degrees of conditioning as well; I don't find it surprising that this young lady could have bested 20 reasonably conditioned boy wrestlers in her weight class.

[Andrew D]

Do not mess with this woman. She is small, but she kicks ass, and she has no trouble taking on men a lot bigger than she is.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Dear Andrew

But did she compete (when she competed) against equally trained men? Or were her competitions in the women's divisions of martial arts - which is her teaching area.

I would not be surprised if some of those 20 who lost to the young lady hesitated in selecting a hold or subconsciously held back as a result of cultural conditioning (if you wish) or moral decency (if you wish). On the other hand, my son wrestled boys in his weight class who were just g-d-awful wrestlers and would have lost to his sister.

I continue to see no reason why this young man should give up his wrestling on the off-chance that one day he might have to wrestle a girl. Better to perform to one's best against the boys and when the girl shows up, give her the road. It's the polite thing to do - like not wearing a hat inside most buildings.

In the end, it surely comes down to whether one believes that it is a right thing or a wrong thing for boys to be wrestling against girls.

Regards
Meade

[thestoat]

I do a lot of karate and last year, during a training exercise, was teamed with a couple of women (to discuss some application of a move). One of them is tiny (I am about 16 inches taller than she is), though a long time ago she was good at judo. Anyway, she suggested the karate move could be interpreted as a throw and proceeded to demonstrate on me. I went down like a sack of spuds. That was excellent technique.

Having said that, in many years studying martial arts, I have yet to meet any woman who could beat a "similar" man in an equal spar/fight. I do know one woman in particular who is immensely strong and very good at karate, but I don't think even she would win against a similar man. There is an overlap, of course - the best women will easily beat the worst men. But from my experience, the best women won't beat the best men.

I do believe there is huge benefit to be gained from cross gender fighting though.

[Crackpot]

Of course the make-up sex is great!