Old white men quail (not Dan)

[wesw]

...tell us ab0ut h0w y0u hate "p0rch m0nkeys" again, m0r0n?

[Lord Jim]

y0u are fucking nuts, BB

A guy who recently equated Donald Trump with Jesus Christ is pretty poorly positioned to be passing judgement on anyone elses mental health...

Just sayin'...

[Big RR]

Look at how women leaders and candidates are criticized and analyzed, as compared to men, and tell me again how it's only about who is the "most qualified."

Point taken Guin, and I can't argue with it. However, unless the decision is to be made by assessing who is the "most qualified", however we each define it, how shoudl we choose our leaders? IMHO, I think a lot of this hypercritical analysis will subside as we see more women in leadership positions; indeed, I think some of the same attitude toward younger people in leadership positions (such as in both houses of congress) has subsided as more younger people were in those positions, and I think we will see the same with women. Certainly there will always be some naysayers, but the prevailing attitude will change, whether the naysayers like it or not.

[wesw]

n0, assh0le, I said that the l0rd uses imperfect pe0ple and rulebreakers t0 achieve great things, am0ng them was jesus Christ.

jesus is the l0rd, trump is n0t his equal.....

[Sue U]

Look at how women leaders and candidates are criticized and analyzed, as compared to men, and tell me again how it's only about who is the "most qualified."

Point taken Guin, and I can't argue with it. However, unless the decision is to be made by assessing who is the "most qualified", however we each define it, how shoudl we choose our leaders? IMHO, I think a lot of this hypercritical analysis will subside as we see more women in leadership positions; indeed, I think some of the same attitude toward younger people in leadership positions (such as in both houses of congress) has subsided as more younger people were in those positions, and I think we will see the same with women. Certainly there will always be some naysayers, but the prevailing attitude will change, whether the naysayers like it or not.

Problem is, you won't see more women in leadership positions as long as the criteria for those positions are defined according to traditionally gender-specific biases ("gravitas"/ "shrill"/ "angry"/ "emotional"/ "unlikeable"/ "just a barmaid") and there's no real effort to cultivate a party leadership broader than old white men. In the same way that diversity is good for education, it is good for politics, as it brings a wider variety of experiences and perspectives to bear on the issues -- and it needs to be acted on consciously and affirmatively, not through an imagined "organic" process.

The remarks cited in the OP were intended to be light-hearted and complimentary, I'm sure, but they do come off as pandering and with more than a whiff of paternalism. Women can be just as terrible or just as terrific in leadership roles as men, but the real issue is the creation of truly equal opportunities to be so.

[BoSoxGal]

How many times have women said "she is the most qualified" only to hear back "you're only voting for her because she's a woman." I stopped counting, back in 2007.... and yet I still hear it, all the effing time. Because, apparently, I'm too stupid to be able to analyze anything beyond gender? Because my silly little female brain couldn't possibly understand more than once concept at a time?

Look at how women leaders and candidates are criticized and analyzed, as compared to men, and tell me again how it's only about who is the "most qualified."

It is actually possible to be a fully realized man, to be successful in life, including family, business, and the rest of it, to respect women, and not be threatened by them, to include them in all aspects of decision-making and life, to not need "rules" about interacting with them, to not need to control them, and to even like them (not just as carriers of your seed and spawn). These men, these allies, have far richer, more satisfying, and better lives than some of you could ever even contemplate. Many of you are just dinosaurs (not quail). Thank the goddess you'll eventually be extinct.

THIS

[Lord Jim]

Wishing for the deaths of your fellow Plan B participants...

What a lovely holiday season sentiment...

[BoSoxGal]

y0u kn0w....

...we d0n t like killing spiders either.

they scare us t00.

has t0 be d0ne th0.....

No, it doesn’t have to be done. And there are plenty of women just like myself who aren’t one bit scared of spiders or much else in the world - but who sadly should always bear in mind to be leery of men, because they are the major cause of death of women who die by misadventure/homicide. Plenty of abusive and murderous men who on the surface looked like ‘great’ guys to their families, friends and neighbors. Any one of you could be one of them because there is a profound sickness that runs in our human culture and we are far from eradicating it.

[BoSoxGal]

Wishing for the deaths of your fellow Plan B participants...

What a lovely holiday season sentiment...

Oh please; you are going to die I am going to die we are ALL GOING TO DIE. Nobody is wishing for your particular death to come any sooner than otherwise fated; we are merely appreciating that regressive thinking gets a little less common with the passing of each generation.

Not fast enough for my liking, but whatever.

Here’s a Pitney Bowes advertisement from within the lifetimes of some on this board that was just referenced on an episode of 8 Out of 10 Cats Does Countdown that I watched this morning.



I could post dozens of other ads from my own childhood that are similarly disgustingly sexist, and there is plenty happening today that promotes the idea that women are worthless - like the fetishizing of the brutal rape, torture and murder of women that is all over our TV shows and movies.


I do wish every day that Donald J. Trump would die, immediately. I’ve confessed that several times before and have no shame about it whatsoever. It is incidental that he also happens to be a fantastic example of the profound misogyny that permeates our deeply sick society.

[Big RR]

Sue--yes, but, it hasn't even been since women were permitted to vote and we now have the largest number of women in the federal legislature. And we have had a woman who rain on a major party slate for president and convincingly won the popular vote (only our byzantine electoral college prevented her from being elected; not to mention that some of the most popular democratic candidates for the presidential nomination are women, and the person third line line of presidential succession is a woman. Sure, it's not perfect, and there will be many who will still attack a woman candidate for being a woman and will refrain from voting for her because of that, but there are far more who will elect the best candidate regardless of gender. and I think this will only increase.

[ex-khobar Andy]

Look at how women leaders and candidates are criticized and analyzed, as compared to men, and tell me again how it's only about who is the "most qualified."

Point taken Guin, and I can't argue with it. However, unless the decision is to be made by assessing who is the "most qualified", however we each define it, how shoudl we choose our leaders? IMHO, I think a lot of this hypercritical analysis will subside as we see more women in leadership positions; indeed, I think some of the same attitude toward younger people in leadership positions (such as in both houses of congress) has subsided as more younger people were in those positions, and I think we will see the same with women. Certainly there will always be some naysayers, but the prevailing attitude will change, whether the naysayers like it or not.

Problem is, you won't see more women in leadership positions as long as the criteria for those positions are defined according to traditionally gender-specific biases ("gravitas"/ "shrill"/ "angry"/ "emotional"/ "unlikeable"/ "just a barmaid") and there's no real effort to cultivate a party leadership broader than old white men. In the same way that diversity is good for education, it is good for politics, as it brings a wider variety of experiences and perspectives to bear on the issues -- and it needs to be acted on consciously and affirmatively, not through an imagined "organic" process.

The remarks cited in the OP were intended to be light-hearted and complimentary, I'm sure, but they do come off as pandering and with more than a whiff of paternalism. Women can be just as terrible or just as terrific in leadership roles as men, but the real issue is the creation of truly equal opportunities to be so.

I'm in general agreement, Sue but can I make a point? This sort of discrimination is not always gender based, I've spent most of my career as a senior manager in a very technical field. Last but two jobs I led a regional division of 50 - 60 people within a company of about 500 employees. Our region had the highest profitability of any (although about 10% of the company we generated almost 50% of the profits) and we scored the highest marks in the annual quality competition which was based on customer questionnaires. So you'd think that I'd be lauded: well done, Khobar old chap tell us how you did it. Well I am a consensus manager, I rarely pull rank, I can be persuaded that I am wrong and I listen to my employees who know more than I do about the specific tasks they undertake. The COO to whom I reported was the exact opposite: employees need to be kept firmly in line and you need to be on their back the whole time. He was (is still, AFAIK) your typical testosterone-filled type A personality and on at least one occasion he told me that I managed like an old woman. I of course accepted this compliment gracefully - as you might expect - which was not the reaction he had anticipated.

To cut a long story short, I was fired because I refused to meet his criteria for being a good manager. The fact that I more than met company goals of profitability by focusing on quality and customer relations was not enough. I am pleased to say that it wasn't long before the company fired the COO; it may have been too late because last I heard, the profits for the entire company were less than I was generating for just my division.

I'm not telling this story to show what a splendid human being I am (you all know that already) but that men also sometimes suffer from this gender-role typeof expectation. Often when I wanted resumes for a sales/marketing type, I would get a cv stating that the person (either sex but most often men) was an 'aggressive sales professional.' WTF? I don't want you to be aggressive with my customers. I want you to listen to them and, if they need what we have to sell, try to persuade them to go with us rather than the guy down the road. Sometimes the guy down the road had a better product and I would usually have no hesitation in telling my customer if that was so. They'll be back next time they need something.

[BoSoxGal]

(CNN)Estonia's President has apologized after the country's interior minister mocked Finland's newly elected leader and described her as a "sales girl."

The leader of Estonia's populist far-right party EKRE, Mart Helme, questioned the ability of Finnish Prime Minister Sanna Marin, 34, to run her country on Sunday.
"Now we see how one sales girl has become a Prime Minister and how some other street activists and non-educated people have also joined the cabinet," Helme said on his party's radio talk show Sunday, according to Estonian public broadcaster ERR.
Marin -- who leads Finland's Social Democratic party -- has spoken about her life growing up in a disadvantaged family and working as a cashier, before she studied at university.

Finland's Sanna Marin to become world's youngest prime minister at 34
Finland's Sanna Marin to become world's youngest prime minister at 34
She became the world's youngest sitting Prime Minister earlier in December after replacing the nation's former leader, Antti Rinne. Five of Finland's major parties in parliament are all led by women, four of whom are in their 30s.
"I'm extremely proud of Finland. Here a poor family's child can educate themselves and achieve their goals in life. A cashier can become even a Prime Minister," Marin tweeted.
Estonian President Kersti Kaljulaid apologized for Helme's comments during a phone call with Finnish President Sauli Niinistö on Monday, according to a statement on the Finnish President's website.
Helme on Monday justified his statement by saying: "That specific sentence about the Finnish Prime Minister, which you have interpreted as demeaning, I have actually interpreted as complimentary -- as recognition that someone can work their way up from a low social standing to the peak of politics," according to ERR.
Estonian interior minister calls first female president 'emotionally upset woman'
Estonian interior minister calls first female president 'emotionally upset woman'
On Tuesday, Helme survived a vote of no-confidence in the Estonian parliament, which was called because of his comments.
It comes after the President of Estonia and its Prime Minister, Jüri Ratas, spoke on Sunday over the phone. According to Mailin Aasmäe, a press officer at the Estonian President's office, the President "suggested that the minister of interior should be replaced."

The Estonian President is a largely ceremonial role with no executive powers.
The Estonian interior ministry referred CNN to Helme's party, EKRE. The party has not yet responded to CNN's request for comment.

According to Reuters, Helme formerly worked as Estonia's ambassador to Russia and is known for his outspoken comments.

[Big RR]

I know exactly what your are talking about Andy. I've always prided myself as a person who can achieve a consensus, and I have used this to my advantage when negotiating agreements, whether commercials ones or ones settling lawsuits. When I first started out an an attorney my position on litigations teams was the contact with the other side, and one of my major jobs was to negotiate things like extensions for periods to respond or moving a hearing date; by necessity, this required some give and take and I was good at it. However, on a couple of teams, I had to deal with a head (actually multiple heads on different teams) who was an asshole and who felt he had to demonize the other side and everything they asked for (I guess he did this to keep his edge) and attack me personally as a wimp for any suggested concessions. This wasn't limited to men, I saw it in women on the other side as well, but when I got a little experience and went in house, I kept my approach and avoided those jerks like the plague when hiring a lawyer for a litigation, but I've run across these jerks, men and women, throughout my career.

[Guinevere]

Wishing for the deaths of your fellow Plan B participants...

What a lovely holiday season sentiment...

That's not what I wrote. I wish for and look forward to the death of sexism and misogyny. Doesn't mean I won't miss some (some, not all, probably not the majority) of the old fools who continue to perpetuate it.

[Guinevere]

Look at how women leaders and candidates are criticized and analyzed, as compared to men, and tell me again how it's only about who is the "most qualified."

Point taken Guin, and I can't argue with it. However, unless the decision is to be made by assessing who is the "most qualified", however we each define it, how shoudl we choose our leaders? IMHO, I think a lot of this hypercritical analysis will subside as we see more women in leadership positions; indeed, I think some of the same attitude toward younger people in leadership positions (such as in both houses of congress) has subsided as more younger people were in those positions, and I think we will see the same with women. Certainly there will always be some naysayers, but the prevailing attitude will change, whether the naysayers like it or not.

Problem is, you won't see more women in leadership positions as long as the criteria for those positions are defined according to traditionally gender-specific biases ("gravitas"/ "shrill"/ "angry"/ "emotional"/ "unlikeable"/ "just a barmaid") and there's no real effort to cultivate a party leadership broader than old white men. In the same way that diversity is good for education, it is good for politics, as it brings a wider variety of experiences and perspectives to bear on the issues -- and it needs to be acted on consciously and affirmatively, not through an imagined "organic" process.

The remarks cited in the OP were intended to be light-hearted and complimentary, I'm sure, but they do come off as pandering and with more than a whiff of paternalism. Women can be just as terrible or just as terrific in leadership roles as men, but the real issue is the creation of truly equal opportunities to be so.

Exactly.

In fantasy land, it would be lovely if everyone considered only the actual qualifications for the job, but that's now how the real world works. Instead, those with power do everything they can to main their grip on that power (often with all the strength their old, white, male hands can manage). See, e.g., the Republican party of 2019.

[Joe Guy]

Seriously, is the statement, "you're better than us" a form of condescension? Or is it seen as complimentary (which is how it is intended, no doubt)? What is it that women would do if every nation was run by 'em for two years?

I see Obama's statement more as a form of condensation, although maybe he should have further condensed it to, "What me worry?"

As far as what women would do if they were given control of every nation for two years, I believe that's quite obvious. They would spend those two years working on getting re-elected.

[wesw]

if y0u aren t scared 0f spiders y0u aren t t00 bright.

they can and will hurt y0u very badly, if n0t kill y0u.

I d0n t kill garden spiders, if I can help it, but I d0 tear their webs dwn since they tend t0 build them in my garden and where I walk

[Guinevere]

Problem is, you won't see more women in leadership positions as long as the criteria for those positions are defined according to traditionally gender-specific biases ("gravitas"/ "shrill"/ "angry"/ "emotional"/ "unlikeable"/ "just a barmaid") and there's no real effort to cultivate a party leadership broader than old white men. In the same way that diversity is good for education, it is good for politics, as it brings a wider variety of experiences and perspectives to bear on the issues -- and it needs to be acted on consciously and affirmatively, not through an imagined "organic" process.

The remarks cited in the OP were intended to be light-hearted and complimentary, I'm sure, but they do come off as pandering and with more than a whiff of paternalism. Women can be just as terrible or just as terrific in leadership roles as men, but the real issue is the creation of truly equal opportunities to be so.

I'm in general agreement, Sue but can I make a point? This sort of discrimination is not always gender based, I've spent most of my career as a senior manager in a very technical field. Last but two jobs I led a regional division of 50 - 60 people within a company of about 500 employees. Our region had the highest profitability of any (although about 10% of the company we generated almost 50% of the profits) and we scored the highest marks in the annual quality competition which was based on customer questionnaires. So you'd think that I'd be lauded: well done, Khobar old chap tell us how you did it. Well I am a consensus manager, I rarely pull rank, I can be persuaded that I am wrong and I listen to my employees who know more than I do about the specific tasks they undertake. The COO to whom I reported was the exact opposite: employees need to be kept firmly in line and you need to be on their back the whole time. He was (is still, AFAIK) your typical testosterone-filled type A personality and on at least one occasion he told me that I managed like an old woman. I of course accepted this compliment gracefully - as you might expect - which was not the reaction he had anticipated.

To cut a long story short, I was fired because I refused to meet his criteria for being a good manager. The fact that I more than met company goals of profitability by focusing on quality and customer relations was not enough. I am pleased to say that it wasn't long before the company fired the COO; it may have been too late because last I heard, the profits for the entire company were less than I was generating for just my division.

I'm not telling this story to show what a splendid human being I am (you all know that already) but that men also sometimes suffer from this gender-role typeof expectation. Often when I wanted resumes for a sales/marketing type, I would get a cv stating that the person (either sex but most often men) was an 'aggressive sales professional.' WTF? I don't want you to be aggressive with my customers. I want you to listen to them and, if they need what we have to sell, try to persuade them to go with us rather than the guy down the road. Sometimes the guy down the road had a better product and I would usually have no hesitation in telling my customer if that was so. They'll be back next time they need something.

Sigh. Seriously? Andy, this comes off as incredibly tone deaf. You were criticized for being "woman-like" and you accepted that gracefully? Since when is being woman-like an acceptable criticism of anyone? Why is being "a girl" or "girlie" a valid insult? The female gender is not and should not be insulting to anyone. We just are. We're here. We're half (really more than half) of the population. Deal with us fairly and honestly and equally, and the world would be a much better place.

[Sue U]

To cut a long story short, I was fired because I refused to meet his criteria for being a good manager. The fact that I more than met company goals of profitability by focusing on quality and customer relations was not enough.

And his criteria for "best qualified for the job" came from a set of "standards" produced by the culture that produced the Pitney Bowes ad posted by BSG above. As David Foster Wallace put it:

There are these two young fish swimming along, and they happen to meet an older fish swimming the other way, who nods at them and says, “Morning, boys. How’s the water?” And the two young fish swim on for a bit, and then eventually one of them looks over at the other and goes, “What the hell is water?”

Also, what Guin said (goes without saying).

[BoSoxGal]

if y0u aren t scared 0f spiders y0u aren t t00 bright.

they can and will hurt y0u very badly, if n0t kill y0u.

I d0n t kill garden spiders, if I can help it, but I d0 tear their webs dwn since they tend t0 build them in my garden and where I walk

One of us ain’t too bright - but it’s not me.

More than 43,000 different species of spiders are found in the world. Of these, only a small number are said to be dangerous, and less than 30 (less than one-tenth of one percent) have been responsible for human deaths.

An intelligent person knows how to identify the venomous/dangerous spiders (and insects, and snakes) that are indigenous to the region where they live and to deal appropriately with those species if encountered.

eta: Here is the only spider that lives where you do that can cause you harm and/or (but unlikely if promptly treated) death:



Stop squealing and crying when you see all the others.

One more bit of advice from the intelligent woman who isn’t afraid of spiders: those garden spiders you keep evicting will eat many of the insects that would otherwise feast on your produce. Perhaps you should rethink your relationship to them and just walk around the webs.