Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
This would be a good opportunity to test those F-22s...
Sometimes it seems as though one has to cross the line just to figger out where it is
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
Oil fields and facilities in Libya are burning. Polar bears are dying and someone has to do something to protect these oils fields and save mother earth.
Soon, I’ll post my farewell message. The end is starting to get close. There are many misconceptions about me, and before I go, to live with my ancestors on the steppes, I want to set the record straight.
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
Spot on Jim, I don't think Qadaffi has many, if any, supporters here. In our government, however, I think there are those who would prefer the devil they know to the devil they don't and/or would prefer a strongman they might be able to corrupt to a popular uprising.
As for military involvement, I'd much rather arm the rebels and let them earn their own "freedom" (however they imagine it) than to hand it to them by our intervention; such intervention rarely works because most people prize only what they actually earn, treating gifts with suspicion (often with good reason).
As for military involvement, I'd much rather arm the rebels and let them earn their own "freedom" (however they imagine it) than to hand it to them by our intervention; such intervention rarely works because most people prize only what they actually earn, treating gifts with suspicion (often with good reason).
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
The problem is an airforce give Qadaffi a major advantage and it is in our (and just about everone elses) best interest to get this over ASAP. Neutralizing it will seriously hinder both his ability to fight and target civilians. The question is if a no fly zone is the best way to accomplish this.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
France has put us to shame.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
Crackpot wrote:France has put us to shame.
Can you believe it? What happened to the cheese eating surrender monkeys? Are they us?
Soon, I’ll post my farewell message. The end is starting to get close. There are many misconceptions about me, and before I go, to live with my ancestors on the steppes, I want to set the record straight.
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
One guy who must be really happy about the earth quake in Japan is Muammar Qaddafi,...
It's taken a lot of the international spot light off of him, at least temporarily....
I saw Obama talking about this at his press conference yesterday, and frankly overall it was a pretty depressing performance....there just seems to be no sense of urgency attached to this whatsoever...all this dithering and foot dragging is getting people killed....I'm starting to feel ashamed for my country, given the way the Administration is handling this....
I see that now the Arab League has formally requested the imposition of a No Fly Zone....
NATO isn't even going to hold it's next meeting about this till Tuesday....
It's taken a lot of the international spot light off of him, at least temporarily....
I saw Obama talking about this at his press conference yesterday, and frankly overall it was a pretty depressing performance....there just seems to be no sense of urgency attached to this whatsoever...all this dithering and foot dragging is getting people killed....I'm starting to feel ashamed for my country, given the way the Administration is handling this....
I see that now the Arab League has formally requested the imposition of a No Fly Zone....
NATO isn't even going to hold it's next meeting about this till Tuesday....
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
'cha, are we that scared of pissing off Saudi Arabia? 
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
The Saudi's don't have a problem with a No Fly Zone....
What really disgusts me is that at the moment it appears that we are willing to allow our policy on this to be subject to the whims of the People's Republic of China, a country that has no problem with mowing down it's own citizens....that's what all this blather about getting approval from the Security Council really amounts to....
What kind of expression of our values is that?
We should be taking the lead in this and working aggressively to build a coalition, but instead it seems like we're being dragged along reluctantly, and putting up road blocks....The policy seems to be "lets see if we can drag our feet long enough until Qaddafi kills enough people and crushes the rebellion, so then we won't have to do anything"
I find that appalling and disgraceful.
What really disgusts me is that at the moment it appears that we are willing to allow our policy on this to be subject to the whims of the People's Republic of China, a country that has no problem with mowing down it's own citizens....that's what all this blather about getting approval from the Security Council really amounts to....
What kind of expression of our values is that?
We should be taking the lead in this and working aggressively to build a coalition, but instead it seems like we're being dragged along reluctantly, and putting up road blocks....The policy seems to be "lets see if we can drag our feet long enough until Qaddafi kills enough people and crushes the rebellion, so then we won't have to do anything"
I find that appalling and disgraceful.
Last edited by Lord Jim on Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
Why would China want to keep Qaddafi in power?
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
Oh shito! Just looked that up; China is now the third-largest buyer of Libyan crude ...are we letting China have control of the ME, after we're still fighting two wars to stabilize it!?
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
Well, the Chinese have good relations with Qaddafi, (it's sort of a thug to thug thing) and get a lot of their oil from him.
But the larger issue doesn't have to do so much with Qaddafi as the fact that the Chinese don't see mowing down thousands of unarmed civilians a a war crime or a crime against humanity. They see it as a purely "internal" matter:, something which they have done themselves and it just ain't no big thang as far as they're concerned. They're very uncomfortable with establishing precedents for international intervention and punishing regimes that engage in that sort of behavior.
But the larger issue doesn't have to do so much with Qaddafi as the fact that the Chinese don't see mowing down thousands of unarmed civilians a a war crime or a crime against humanity. They see it as a purely "internal" matter:, something which they have done themselves and it just ain't no big thang as far as they're concerned. They're very uncomfortable with establishing precedents for international intervention and punishing regimes that engage in that sort of behavior.
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
Oh crap, it's official: I don't like this administration.
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
Unfortunately I don't think we'll have a real choice for something better next election cycle. All the past two have proved to me is that Democrats are too incompetent to work toward internal consensus and given the chance Republicans will use their internal consensus to enact any policy that is counter to the general will of the people.
In short we have one party that is unable to work for the "holistic" people and another that is unwilling to do so.
In short we have one party that is unable to work for the "holistic" people and another that is unwilling to do so.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
If our federal government lacks the imagination to aid the democratic resistance of Libya without us being drawn in to a protracted struggle with Kaddafi what in the hell are we paying them for, managing the public schools in Lubbock Texas?
Also the government of china wants maintain the precedent that whatever the established government does to put down illegal pretest is acceptable.
Can we all agree that the UN now is officially a Joke in terms of supporting peace, freedom?
Does Libya still have a seat on the UN’s Human rights committee?
Also the government of china wants maintain the precedent that whatever the established government does to put down illegal pretest is acceptable.
Can we all agree that the UN now is officially a Joke in terms of supporting peace, freedom?
Does Libya still have a seat on the UN’s Human rights committee?
Soon, I’ll post my farewell message. The end is starting to get close. There are many misconceptions about me, and before I go, to live with my ancestors on the steppes, I want to set the record straight.
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
The question (which may well come back to bite us all on the ass in future cases if not thought through completely) is under what circumstances do international forces insert themselves into what has become for all intents and purposes a civil war? The world sat on its hands for years, nay, decades, while deliberate massacres of civilians several orders of magnitude larger were going on in Sudan, to say nothing of other places.
And as to the U.S.'s competence in exercising its imagination to find ways to aid the Libyan resistance, the very few successes in similar endeavours (Kosovo) are far, far, FAR outweighed by the myriad of complete fuck ups (Vietnam, Nicaragua, Afghanistan - twice, Iraq, etc., etc., etc.), so be careful what you wish for.
And as to the U.S.'s competence in exercising its imagination to find ways to aid the Libyan resistance, the very few successes in similar endeavours (Kosovo) are far, far, FAR outweighed by the myriad of complete fuck ups (Vietnam, Nicaragua, Afghanistan - twice, Iraq, etc., etc., etc.), so be careful what you wish for.
"Hang on while I log in to the James Webb telescope to search the known universe for who the fuck asked you." -- James Fell
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
Afghanistan does not belong in that group and with both Vietnam and Nicaragua we were on the wrong side. In Afghanistan we were going after a group which had made war on us with the protection of the Taliban. We had no obligation to 'liberate' the people of Afghanistan or install a legitimate and competent government and still do not.Scooter wrote:The question (which may well come back to bite us all on the ass in future cases if not thought through completely) is under what circumstances do international forces insert themselves into what has become for all intents and purposes a civil war? The world sat on its hands for years, nay, decades, while deliberate massacres of civilians several orders of magnitude larger were going on in Sudan, to say nothing of other places.
And as to the U.S.'s competence in exercising its imagination to find ways to aid the Libyan resistance, the very few successes in similar endeavours (Kosovo) are far, far, FAR outweighed by the myriad of complete fuck ups (Vietnam, Nicaragua, Afghanistan - twice, Iraq, etc., etc., etc.), so be careful what you wish for.
IN Nicaragua the Sandinistas overthrow a 2nd generation dictatorship and installed a democratic country. And when they were voted out of office, they left. Reagan tried to re-install the dictators.
In Libya the people of the country have shown a willingness to sacrifice and die for their own autonomy. This was not true in Iraq or Afghanistan and is a powerful indicator that our support will be welcomed rather than despised (as it predictably is in Iraq. Only a perfect jackass chorous like Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld would not know better.).
yrs,
rubato
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
Lord Jim wrote:Well, the Chinese have good relations with Qaddafi, (it's sort of a thug to thug thing) and get a lot of their oil from him.
... "
Reagan had great relations with Saddam Hussein and Pinochet.
Its a thug thing.
yrs,
rubato
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
The trouble is that we have no real idea what the support level is for the rebels within Libya.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”
Re: Gaddafi's last throw of the dice?
the number of areas they control should be some guide.Gob wrote:The trouble is that we have no real idea what the support level is for the rebels within Libya.