The United Police States of America

[Bicycle Bill]

Stop licking jackboots. It's pathetic.

Stop dropping your pants and waving your dick.  It's nauseating.

-"BB"-

[Gob]

And we're not bitching and moaning and screaming and yelling and protesting about cops, we're bitching and moaning and screaming and yelling and protesting about *BAD* cops.

Scooter posited that all cops are pigs...

Personally, I'd love to try living in a country without bad cops.

When we get Robocops, we'll be fine....

[Scooter]

Scooter posited that all cops are pigs...

No, I said:

all cops deserve to be called pigs, unless they prove otherwise by their actions

Emphasis added.

I am no longer willing to consider someone a "good cop" unless they show that they are unwilling to look to the other way or otherwise tolerate the abuses committed by the "bad cops". IOW, any cop who stays silent in the face of those abuses is also a pig. Which probably makes most, but not all, cops pigs. I'm sure the occasional Serpico still exists.

[ex-khobar Andy]

I personally think that most* cops are OK. But I admit that my interactions for the last 40 years have almost all involved being stopped for speeding. And I'm an old (well for the last few times anyway) white guy in a halfway decent car. So Heisenberg's Principle applies - the act of observation affects the observation itself. Were I black or gay or a woman my experience and my conclusions might be very different. I had a couple of black employees who were late coming on shift. I asked them why they were late and they told me "We got a DWB coming in" and although I don't think I'd ever heard the term, I knew instantly what they meant**. And, when I was a lot younger, I had at least two woman friends who told me how they had been stopped for some driving infraction and the cop had made it pretty clear that there was a pathway to him tearing up the ticket. So the 'most cops are OK' view I have is very much a function of how and where I sit.

*Except for the Indiana cop who stopped me outside Cedar Lake. I was doing 42 in a 30 mph area. I know that because I looked at my speedometer when I saw him. Now I thought it was a 40 limit because my GPS told me it was, but after the incident I went back to see how I had missed the sign. There was some temporary distraction - I forget exactly what - which meant that I hadn't seen the sign: but fair enough, there it was. But he upped the ticket to 55 because the fine was doubled. I admit to being a little generous with my interpretation of speed limits but 55 on that road would have been insane and I am not that. When I got to my destination I told my friend. "Well what do you expect?" he said. "Out of state plates and the last day of the month."

** Buffalo Police, BTW.

[Gob]

I am no longer willing to consider someone a "good cop" unless they show that they are unwilling to look to the other way or otherwise tolerate the abuses committed by the "bad cops".

My bad. But for that to happen, bad cops have to keep being bad, do you want more George Floyd incidents to happen?

[Scooter]

If we ever reach the utopia where there are no more George Floyds, then there will be no bad behaviour that other cops can fail to confront.

[Jarlaxle]

Scooter posited that all cops are pigs...

No, I said:

all cops deserve to be called pigs, unless they prove otherwise by their actions

Emphasis added.

I am no longer willing to consider someone a "good cop" unless they show that they are unwilling to look to the other way or otherwise tolerate the abuses committed by the "bad cops". IOW, any cop who stays silent in the face of those abuses is also a pig. Which probably makes most, but not all, cops pigs. I'm sure the occasional Serpico still exists.

A handful, probably...but they either turn bad or burn out and leave law enforcement (voluntarily or not) in short order. Donna Jean Watts still opens her mailbox with a broom.

[Darren]

Stop licking jackboots. It's pathetic.

I always give people the benefit of the doubt unless something clues me otherwise.

Assuming everyone is the same because of a few whether they're Black, Hispanic, cops, doctors, lawyers, contractors, etc. is called prejudice.

Know thyself.

[Darren]

*Except for the Indiana cop who stopped me outside Cedar Lake. I was doing 42 in a 30 mph area. I know that because I looked at my speedometer when I saw him. Now I thought it was a 40 limit because my GPS told me it was, but after the incident I went back to see how I had missed the sign. There was some temporary distraction - I forget exactly what - which meant that I hadn't seen the sign: but fair enough, there it was. But he upped the ticket to 55 because the fine was doubled. I admit to being a little generous with my interpretation of speed limits but 55 on that road would have been insane and I am not that. When I got to my destination I told my friend. "Well what do you expect?" he said. "Out of state plates and the last day of the month."

** Buffalo Police, BTW.

I got pulled over by a WV state cop while driving a red rental car (NJ plates) doing 79 mph in a 70 zone. Anyone from WV knows 80 is A OK on the interstate all day long. When he saw I didn't have a NJ driver's license, he gave me a warning.

To be fair there's two S curves on that stretch that regularly depopulate drivers from outside WV. Maybe he was performing a public service.

[BoSoxGal]

I personally think that most* cops are OK. But I admit that my interactions for the last 40 years have almost all involved being stopped for speeding. And I'm an old (well for the last few times anyway) white guy in a halfway decent car. So Heisenberg's Principle applies - the act of observation affects the observation itself. Were I black or gay or a woman my experience and my conclusions might be very different. I had a couple of black employees who were late coming on shift. I asked them why they were late and they told me "We got a DWB coming in" and although I don't think I'd ever heard the term, I knew instantly what they meant**. And, when I was a lot younger, I had at least two woman friends who told me how they had been stopped for some driving infraction and the cop had made it pretty clear that there was a pathway to him tearing up the ticket. So the 'most cops are OK' view I have is very much a function of how and where I sit.

*Except for the Indiana cop who stopped me outside Cedar Lake. I was doing 42 in a 30 mph area. I know that because I looked at my speedometer when I saw him. Now I thought it was a 40 limit because my GPS told me it was, but after the incident I went back to see how I had missed the sign. There was some temporary distraction - I forget exactly what - which meant that I hadn't seen the sign: but fair enough, there it was. But he upped the ticket to 55 because the fine was doubled. I admit to being a little generous with my interpretation of speed limits but 55 on that road would have been insane and I am not that. When I got to my destination I told my friend. "Well what do you expect?" he said. "Out of state plates and the last day of the month."

** Buffalo Police, BTW.

You’re wrong, but I understand that your wrong perspective comes from your very limited experience.

Most cops are not good. Most cops are bullies with serious anger and attitude issues. My perspective comes from thousands of hours of body and dashcam video that I watched over years in the criminal justice system, on both sides. All sides, really, if my time as a child and family advocate is also included. Most cops behave abhorrently in their interactions with regular citizens - maybe not every time, but far too many times. And they don’t just denigrate and abuse people of color - they do it to white folks too. We have too many cops with serious anger and other psychological problems, and a cop culture that teaches cops they have the right to demand that citizens essentially lick their boots in every interaction and are justified in becoming aggressive and physical when they don’t. That’s unacceptable. Period. We need wide scale reform in policing policies and training and unions and all the aspects that create these monsters.

[ex-khobar Andy]

You’re wrong, but I understand that your wrong perspective comes from your very limited experience.

Thanks you for agreeing with my point. I think.

[RayThom]

In my boozy, alcohol infused days my most frequent watering holes were well known "cop bars" in Drexel Hill and Springfield PA. I was comfortable in their midst, and always got along. I accepted they were mostly good intentioned, but horribly flawed individuals, lacking even a whit of altruism. They could see the light but rarely opted to step into it. They would trash talk about those "niggers" and other minorities almost gleefully. As such, I never trusted any of those who protected and served us any further than the drink in front of them.

When they left the bars, those that didn't go directly to work usually went home to chilly receptions -- failing marriages, and/or family life in turmoil. Not surprising, they carried a burden that no one could understand other than their fellow Blue Buds, yet would never tell anyone about anything more than their heroics performed on a regular basis. Talk therapy, or any kind of professional help, was beyond their grasp, or rejected wholesale. Their cries for help couldn't be louder.

So, years later, my daughter tells me her new boyfriend is a NJ cop. I then told her everything I knew about cops and how knowledgeable I was about their basic genetic design flaw. I told her the choice was her's to make and wished her a cautious good luck. Two years later my daughter sat in a Camden holding cell for the 4th of July holiday due to DCS -- Drunken Cop Syndrome.

They had a fight, she pulled a chain around his neck, it created welts, he called his Blue Buds, and charged assault, and my radiologist, non-drinking, daughter spent two day at the Greybar Hotel. Thousand$ of dollar$ and almost a year later all charges were expunged -- like the incident never happened. Just another vindictive cop exercising his power over those who know less, and who have much less protection under the law.

OK, a year ago my daughter starts seeing yet another cop -- Philly this time -- and this time aware there may be a large learning curve in the relationship. Her new-soon-to-be-ex beau loved his alcohol, and expressed limited emotional support for the relationship. Well, she recently dumped his ass, before he had a chance to send her to jail. She's now dating one of her colleagues at the hospital where she practices. So far so good... not a cop in sight.

That's it -- cop culture in a nutshell. If communities start hiring men and women who are strong emotionally then most of this innocent civilian beating and murdering shit will stop. But therein lies the paradox -- emotionally strong individuals are smart enough not to look at law enforcement as a career. Cops may not be the dregs of society, but they're quickly jockeying for the position.

Any true change to cop culture will have to be generational... no overnight fixes in sight. Sadly, there will be more George Floyd moments yet to come.

[BoSoxGal]

You’re wrong, but I understand that your wrong perspective comes from your very limited experience.

Thanks you for agreeing with my point. I think.

I think it’s an excellent point because it is illustrative of what a great many Americans also think from their experiences.

The change in the opinion polls from 2014 (Ferguson, Mike Brown’s murder by cop) to today on the question of whether this is an isolated incident or a larger problem is very telling - it’s now 76% saying a larger problem, but was much lower in 2014. In between we’ve seen many more videos of cops killing black people. Something POC have known for decades is finally becoming the common experience of any white person who watches the news or spends time on social media.

We can only know what we know from our lived experience; in this instance I will celebrate the smartphones and social media for broadening everyone’s lived experience.

[BoSoxGal]

RT, I’m sorry for your daughter’s experiences and grateful they weren’t worse. Anyone who really knows cops knows they have one of the highest rates of domestic violence of any profession - not just because of the emotional problems many of them have, but because they get away with it much easier than any other abusers do. Sadly there are also cases I know of where cops have murdered their partners and gotten away with it, too. That’s why the issue of domestic violence is so hard to address in the criminal justice system - so many of the first responders/investigators can’t be arsed. Years of advocacy and civil litigation brought about laws and policies that mandate arrest in domestic violence situations, but far too many cops do that work grudgingly. Most will complain bitterly about victims who don’t sufficiently appreciate their help - because they are unwilling to learn about the dynamics of abuse and why victims can’t enthusiastically embrace their arrival on scene or their arrest of the abuser. Some cops get it and I’ve always appreciated the ones who do. In fairness there were a lot of lawyers and judges I worked with over the years who were also Neanderthals on this issue.

[Jarlaxle]

Stop licking jackboots. It's pathetic.

I always give people the benefit of the doubt unless something clues me otherwise.

Assuming everyone is the same because of a few whether they're Black, Hispanic, cops, doctors, lawyers, contractors, etc. is called prejudice.

Know thyself.

No, it's called common sense. A badge is a danger sign, on the level of an MS13 tattoo on the face, or a dog foaming at the mouth.

[Jarlaxle]

RT, I’m sorry for your daughter’s experiences and grateful they weren’t worse. Anyone who really knows cops knows they have one of the highest rates of domestic violence of any profession - not just because of the emotional problems many of them have, but because they get away with it much easier than any other abusers do. Sadly there are also cases I know of where cops have murdered their partners and gotten away with it, too. That’s why the issue of domestic violence is so hard to address in the criminal justice system - so many of the first responders/investigators can’t be arsed. Years of advocacy and civil litigation brought about laws and policies that mandate arrest in domestic violence situations, but far too many cops do that work grudgingly. Most will complain bitterly about victims who don’t sufficiently appreciate their help - because they are unwilling to learn about the dynamics of abuse and why victims can’t enthusiastically embrace their arrival on scene or their arrest of the abuser. Some cops get it and I’ve always appreciated the ones who do. In fairness there were a lot of lawyers and judges I worked with over the years who were also Neanderthals on this issue.

Yet another reason every child should know how to make and use a garrote by age ten. Slip up behind the dirtbag, whip a loop of piano wire or monofilament over his head and PULL!

[dales]

Yet another reason every child should know how to make and use a garrote by age ten. Slip up behind the dirtbag, whip a loop of piano wire or monofilament over his head and PULL!

Can't you just feel the love?

That's Jarl.

[Gob]

Minneapolis councilors have voted to abolish the city's police force in an historic move that comes after days of protests over the killing of George Floyd during an arrest.

The city council voted with a veto-proof three-quarters majority to begin the process of dismantling the 'toxic' police department on Sunday - overruling the objections of 38-year-old mayor Jacob Frey.

While the exact next steps are unclear, the plan calls broadly for funds to be taken away from the police department and moved into community services aimed at preventing crime - such as mental health provision, social services, and jobs programs and arts groups.

Camden, New Jersey, is the only city in recent years to undertake such reforms when it scrapped its police force in 2012 after being named one of the most violent places in America, and has reported positive results.

But it is far from clear that the same strategy will work in Minneapolis - a city with almost six times the population of Camden and with a police force that is more than three times the size of Camden's force when it was canned.

This could get interesting....

[Bicycle Bill]

Minneapolis councilors have voted to abolish the city's police force in an historic move that comes after days of protests over the killing of George Floyd during an arrest.

The city council voted with a veto-proof three-quarters majority to begin the process of dismantling the 'toxic' police department on Sunday - overruling the objections of 38-year-old mayor Jacob Frey.

While the exact next steps are unclear, the plan calls broadly for funds to be taken away from the police department and moved into community services aimed at preventing crime - such as mental health provision, social services, and jobs programs and arts groups.

Camden, New Jersey, is the only city in recent years to undertake such reforms when it scrapped its police force in 2012 after being named one of the most violent places in America, and has reported positive results.

But it is far from clear that the same strategy will work in Minneapolis - a city with almost six times the population of Camden and with a police force that is more than three times the size of Camden's force when it was canned.

This could get interesting....

I give them maybe two weeks, max, before the city council realizes what they have stepped into and are forced to back-pedal. In the meantime, there's more than enough people in Minnesota who hunt and have access to weapons to provide for their own self-defense; and I'm sure that they are already familiar with the "you loot, we shoot" phrase and are more than willing to act on it.  And remember, Trumpelstiltskin has already activated the National Guard and threatened/promised to use actual military units to 'keep the peace'.

<sarcasm> So what could possibly go wrong in the meantime? </sarcasm>

I just hope that, once the city council realizes that they've crapped their pants but good and do reinstate some form of law enforcement, there's enough of Minneapolis left standing for them to continue to protect and serve....

-"BB"-

[Guinevere]

There is so much to unpack in these threads. As some of you know, I represent cities and towns, and do some labor work. So that means I have been right there trying to get cops who have committed some kind of bad act, dismissed. I've been mostly successful, but there are always some that, no matter how hard you try, don't go how they should.

The first barrier is really Civil Service rights. That means once past probation (usually a year), the officers have essentially a property right in their job, so to get rid of them (or to discipline them in any way), an employer has to meet a standard which in Massachusetts is called "just cause." Just cause (and related due process) requires a bunch of things along the way including: notice that the conduct was prohibited, and notice of the consequences of failure to meet the standard of conduct. Any discipline has to be commensurate with the nature and severity of the failed conduct, and consistent with other discipline given to similarly situated employees. And then there is the concept of progressive discipline -- which means first violation gets a lighter penalty than subsequent violations. All of these requirements meant that it is imperative that the employer document any bad behavior of a civil service employee --- but who do you think does the documentation? Not the Chief, who may not even know about the problem unless it's raised to him later, but the other line and mid-manager officers -- who are either too busy with actual policing to bother, or too busy protecting their buddies to care. This standard and process applies whether the conduct is something as simple as being late to roll call, or wearing a uniform improperly, or if the employee has engaged in criminal behavior.

Any bad behavior also has to be investigated, and the scope and breadth of the investigation is almost always part of the scrutiny in any disciplinary proceeding. Investigation is typically the purview of the Superior officers, unless the behavior is so bad, it should go to an outside investigator. Unless it is a minor infraction, I almost always recommend using someone outside the department. But often, the other witnesses are . . . . yep, the other cops.

So, want to get rid of civil service? What are you (the employer) willing to pay for it? Because under Massachusetts labor law, anything impacting the terms and conditions of employment, is subject to collective bargaining. The union has to agree to it, or its a no-go. So does Town Meeting, but that's another discussion for another time.

And why was civil service instituted in the first place? Probably to protect employees from the political pressures of appointment and removal, from mob rule, from inconsistency and from favoritism. Maybe that was right, at some point, but in the modern era, it is just become one more way to protect incompetence, and criminal behavior.

Oh, and civil service employees are vested in their pension after 10 years. That means it is their property, and they cannot be deprived of that property without due process -- and even then, typically pensions are only lost when an employee is convicted of a crime involving moral turpitude (and involuntarily terminated). Where an employee is convicted of a crime related to their position (not just violation of any law, but typically one where their special relationship is involved), they can be made to forfeit their pension, but are returned their own contributions into the system.

Next up, when I have some time, why arbitrations and private resolution of labor disputes is another significant barrier to police reform.

One last note -- the employers - cities and towns and the citizens who make up the elected boards that are ultimately the decision-makers in deciding who gets hired, or fired, or disciplined, and the Chiefs -- in my experience, always want to do the right thing. They will take a stand for what is right, even if there is a risk they will lose, or if the evidence isn't great, and they are fully cognizant of the risk to the community of a "bad" cop. That's often discouraging, to try to do the right thing, and then have the officer returned to work, because an arbitrator decided in favor of the officer and the union. Sometimes the union is right there with you, but sometimes not -- lots of favoritism in who gets full support of their brothers and sisters, and who does not.