Anglican priests to join Catholic Church

[thestoat]

I think if you check page 1 you'll find that I don't "deny" homosexuals love and companionship

Sorry - Meade - I am not trying to put words in your mouth But I think I am correct in saying you believe your god will consider a homosexual a sinner. Thus for their salvation they must deny themselves love and companionship for the rest of their lives. Is that correct, or is there another choice? Because my feeling is any god that required that is cruel and unjust, and in my eyes, cruelty and unjustness are sins.

[thestoat]

I expected that some folks might want to justify it, but I never even considered the possibility that anyone would question that it has been going on. It's so ubiquitous.

I really haven't noticed anything like that - though maybe in part because I might agree with any related sentiment Hopefully I haven't spouted "hatred or loathing" - if so it would be unintentional since I don't feel hatred or loathing towards the religious (though maybe pity )

[dgs49]

Love and companionship?

NOBODY is seeking to deny anybody LOVE AND COMPANIONSHIP. It is merely proposed that certain behaviors are sinful - which is to say, they have been proscribed by God.

There are many people who, through no fault of their own, will never experience sexual intercourse with the objects of their desire. Maybe the O/D is a sister, or married to someone else, or totally rejects their advances. The possibilities are limitless. And yet no one would ever accuse God of being cruel and unjust because his Laws prohibit one from copulating with his sister, or because some people are so physically repulsive that they may never find anyone who will willingly copulate with them (sorry if that hit too close to home).

And your implicit model of a one-on-one relationship (i.e., gay marriage) between male homosexuals is a relatively recent development, largely driven by (a) fear of disease, (b) contemporary political motives. The fact has always been and remains that homosexuals are overwhelming interested in multiple "sexual" relationships, both consecutively and concurrently, which explains very clearly the explosive growth of the AIDS epidemic during the first 20 years after its first diagnosis. In fact, homosexuals are not generally seeking LOVE AND COMPANIONSHIP, but rather, attractive young men with whom to copulate. Not exactly the same thing.

We are all free to seek out love and companionship, and God finds that pleasing, I'm sure.

[Scooter]

Isn't it interesting how those who find it necessary to denigrate homosexuals almost invariably turn out to be closet cases? Time after time whenever we hear such venom from preachers, politicians, and yes, participants on web discussion boards, in time we learn that they have been keeping a secret which they have desperately tried to keep hidden?

The need to overcompensate for one's own sense of self-loathing is powerful, isn't it?

[Crackpot]

Meade

So if you truly believe in god you bscome sinless? unable to do wrong in the eyes of God? that is news to me we are all sinners and will continue to be so until the second coming what "counts" is the endeavor to be a better person not ones success. All have fallen short and all sin is abhored in the eyes of God. Who are we to deliniate wh god gives his grace? After all I'm pretty sure the guy directly reserverd that function exclusively to himself.

[Sean]

There are many people who, through no fault of their own, will never experience sexual intercourse with the objects of their desire. Maybe the O/D is a sister, or married to someone else, or totally rejects their advances. The possibilities are limitless. And yet no one would ever accuse God of being cruel and unjust because his Laws prohibit one from copulating with his sister, or because some people are so physically repulsive that they may never find anyone who will willingly copulate with them (sorry if that hit too close to home).

You are seriously comparing God prohibiting somebody having sex with one person (his sister or whatever) to God prohibiting somebody from having sex with anyone they are sexually attracted to?

That is truly la-la land...

Even the most physically repulsive could hire a hooker... unless they happen to be gay of course...

[loCAtek]

Meade

So if you truly believe in god you bscome sinless?

More that you become humble and choose not to sin again ; therefore are and forgiven for your past.

[thestoat]

More that you become humble and choose not to sin again

Then lo - turn from the dark side - become an atheist. As we previously discussed - atheists are ultimately humble since they don't believe the world revolves around them and don't believe there is some benign superpower out there that loves them. Atheists humbly realise just how insignificant we are are in the scheme of things.

You have said before how you strive to be more humble ... join us

[Lord Jim]

Yep, if there's one thing I've always noticed about atheists, it's their deep sense of humility....

[MajGenl.Meade]

Meade So if you truly believe in god you bscome sinless? unable to do wrong in the eyes of God? that is news to me we are all sinners and will continue to be so until the second coming what "counts" is the endeavor to be a better person not ones success. All have fallen short and all sin is abhored in the eyes of God. Who are we to deliniate wh god gives his grace? After all I'm pretty sure the guy directly reserverd that function exclusively to himself.

1. No
2. No
3. Yes
4. No - there are no points for "trying". What there is = replacing the desire to sin with the desire to not sin
5. God's grace is available to all. It is given to those who believe, who repent and who desire to not sin. It is not given to those who announce their intention to continue sinning


thestoat: to answer your question, I have love and companionship with many people of both sexes but that doesn't mean I have to engage in sexual gratification with them does it? I don't think so little of homosexual persons that I do not believe them capable of controlling themselves if that is what they wish to do. If they don't with to do it, then that's their choice isn't it?

As to becoming an atheist, that's rather like knowing that in base 10 math 2+2-4 but then going ahead and pretending that it isn't. Why would anyone willingly be an atheist - believing that rationality is a result of chance; that the evils of this world remain evil and go unpunished and unchanged; that life is meaningless other than what each person injects into it - but that people had better not inject what they want into it if it conflcts with what you want.

And so on
Meade

[thestoat]

I have love and companionship with many people of both sexes but that doesn't mean I have to engage in sexual gratification with them does it

It's not a case of sexual gratification. For many, making love with their life partner is ultimately fulfilling and brings them close in a very special way. This may not be the case for you, or for me - but it is for many, and you believe your god would deny them this fulfilment.

As to becoming an atheist, that's rather like knowing that in base 10 math 2+2-4 but then going ahead and pretending that it isn't

Sorry - I don't get the analogy. My point to lo was in reference to an earlier discussion where lo stated the wish to be humble. I believe that it is humbling to realise that we are all insignificant specs that will ultimately die and not humbling to believe you are so important that an omnipotent being has a special place for you. That's all

[dgs49]

I agree with LJ. People do not become atheists out of humility but hubris. Simply cannot acknowledge a Power greater than themselves.

[Andrew D]

Hubris? Or simply the willingness to accept personal responsibility?

The atheist must decided for her- or himself what is right and what is wrong. The atheist cannot simply abdicate responsibility for such determinations by resorting to "The Holy Book says so, and that's that."

Religious traditions of all sorts have produced, and continue to produce, many great thinkers. But they have also been a convenient refuge for those who do not wish to think for themselves.

[thestoat]

People do not become atheists out of humility but hubris. Simply cannot acknowledge a Power greater than themselves.

Rubbish. Complete fiction. All the atheists I know are pretty sure there are many powers greater than ourselves. Put anyone in a cage with a lion and you'll see that. Most atheists I have come across believe in other life forms from other planets. Many of those could well have greater powers. We simply don't believe in any god, which is completely different.

[MajGenl.Meade]

I have love and companionship with many people of both sexes but that doesn't mean I have to engage in sexual gratification with them does it

It's not a case of sexual gratification. For many, making love with their life partner is ultimately fulfilling and brings them close in a very special way. This may not be the case for you, or for me - but it is for many, and you believe your god would deny them this fulfilment.

As to becoming an atheist, that's rather like knowing that in base 10 math 2+2-4 but then going ahead and pretending that it isn't

Sorry - I don't get the analogy. My point to lo was in reference to an earlier discussion where lo stated the wish to be humble. I believe that it is humbling to realise that we are all insignificant specs that will ultimately die and not humbling to believe you are so important that an omnipotent being has a special place for you. That's all

Well I hope it isn't the case for you and me because I'm not actually very attracted to you - and the distance involved.............

No God doesn't deny "them" (not a good word in South Africa) this fulfilment. As you clearly know, they are feeling full, filling full and full of filling all over the place - haven't seen God stop one yet. Nor does he stop thieves from thieving, Hitlers from Hitlering and nose-pickers from nose-picking. No sinner (including me) wanted to give up sin until we were converted - changed - made different. The desire to sin is replaced by the desire to NOT SIN (is this somehow not clear?). If my sin was to steal - I now desire to not steal. If I was a liar - my desire becomes to not lie. If I am homosexual my desire becomes to not perform homosexual acts. My desire, my fulfilment is no longer bound up in the act of sin. This is straightforward (to use a suspect word)

As to atheism, you suggested to Lo that it is humble to change one's mind to become an atheist. I speak not for Lo but point out that for a Christian that is like changing one's mind that 2+2=4 in base 10 math and deciding to believe it is 5 instead. In other words, those who know the truth cannot unknow it.

Mind you I had a friend who became a Christian, then had seizures (MS) and could not be persuaded afterwards that he'd done any such thing. I like to bother pastors by asking if he was saved or not? By the way, this was the kind of male friend I spoke of in saying that it's perfectly possible to experience love and companionship with another man without botty bashing. Papa Doc and I shared a lot - short of hugs, kisses and extras. Well the occasional "manly" hug. I cannot imagine anyone in their right mind kissing him.... yech! (Even so, Gyna Wyneshaft was seen giving him snogosis in the gutters of Fleet Street)

Ken Papa Doc (RIP)

Papa Ken's there again
with the drinking company
after serving on the Telex Overseas
and the beers he was served
had shattered all his nerves
and left a little trembling in his knee
but the booze it eased the pain
and the fumes waft round his brain
and gave him all the confidence he lacked
with a strangled fart
he lays upon his back

there's a hole in Papa's face
where all the money goes
and Jesus Christ would not be seen dead in those clothes
Little bottles have big tops
and Ken he never stops
street pongs all cling too long beneath his ale-stained nose

(Apologies to J Prine)

There that should bring down the tone of the neighbourhood

Nostalgically
Meade

[thestoat]

Well I hope it isn't the case for you and me because I'm not actually very attracted to you - and the distance involved

But you have never even met me I have been to SA many times and love the country ...

As to atheism, you suggested to Lo that it is humble to change one's mind to become an atheist

I was being flippant to lo -we have had many discussions.- I suspect lo will never see the light and convert

No God doesn't deny "them" (not a good word in South Africa) this fulfilment. As you clearly know, they are feeling full, filling full and full of filling all over the place - haven't seen God stop one yet. Nor does he stop thieves from thieving, Hitlers from Hitlering and nose-pickers from nose-picking. No sinner (including me) wanted to give up sin until we were converted - changed - made different. The desire to sin is replaced by the desire to NOT SIN (is this somehow not clear?). If my sin was to steal - I now desire to not steal. If I was a liar - my desire becomes to not lie. If I am homosexual my desire becomes to not perform homosexual acts. My desire, my fulfilment is no longer bound up in the act of sin. This is straightforward (to use a suspect word)

I don't say god deny's them (the omnipotent seems surprisingly powerless in this regard). My feeling is nobody should steel. Nobody should Hitler (nice verb). Nobody should pick their nose (well, ok, let's be lax on that one). But everyone deserves love, and deserves to be able to express that love - if it doesn't hurt anyone else (so rape is out). Your god, sadist that he is (sorry, LJ), makes people that want to love others but are not allowed to by his word. He makes people who are not allowed to murder too - but that is by everybody's word. Out of interest - "don't murder" is a commandment. Is "don't bite pillows"?

[MajGenl.Meade]

It's the teeth my dear - the teeth.... and those little claws.... now if you were a nice meerkat or a yellow mongoose perhaps so.....

I don't say god deny's them (the omnipotent seems surprisingly powerless in this regard). My feeling is nobody should steel. Nobody should Hitler (nice verb). Nobody should pick their nose (well, ok, let's be lax on that one). But everyone deserves love, and deserves to be able to express that love - if it doesn't hurt anyone else (so rape is out). Your god, sadist that he is (sorry, LJ), makes people that want to love others but are not allowed to by his word. He makes people who are not allowed to murder too - but that is by everybody's word. Out of interest - "don't murder" is a commandment. Is "don't bite pillows"?

1. I doubt there's a Christian who'd be fond of a god who stopped people from doing anything the slightest bit wrong. No end of confusion I imagine. Anyway, His power is to save and to condemn. ie. He has the last word

3. That's a fallacy of argumentation there. "But that is by everybody's word". Large numbers (even infinite ones) do not make a thing more "right" (or "wrong") than something which is supported by a smaller number. Besides, God is a person (the best) and if He says He's hurt by something we do I guess He would be the majority of One that Thoreau was on about.

2. God either is or isn't. If the former, then it's not sadism. If the latter, then

4. I spit on numerical fascism

4. Oh please! Lev. 20:13 Gen. 19:4–5, 12–13 1 Cor. 6:9 Rom. 1:26–27. Besides

And finally (v) you don't seem to grasp that anyone who believes God's revelation in the Bible (i.e. is a real Christian) no longer wants / desires to indulge in their former sinful activities. If they do, then they are not a Christian because they are now choosing to pick out the bits they like and reject God's word if they don't like it.

It really is self-selection.

Meade

[Andrew D]

His power is to save and to condemn. ie. He has the last word

And he/she/it uses that power to subject to eternal torment people whose eternal damnation was absolutely ineluctable before he/she/it created them. (Or, if you like, he/she/it created an eternally existing state of affairs such that no possibility of their avoiding that eternal damnation did/does/could/can/will/might ever exist.) Where is the morality in that?

[MajGenl.Meade]

His power is to save and to condemn. ie. He has the last word

And he/she/it uses that power to subject to eternal torment people whose eternal damnation was absolutely ineluctable before he/she/it created them. (Or, if you like, he/she/it created an eternally existing state of affairs such that no possibility of their avoiding that eternal damnation did/does/could/can/will/might ever exist.) Where is the morality in that?

You don't know any of that to be correct because you are an agnostic! (And don't quote the Bible at me because you don't believe it's true anyway ). Who are you to judge a God you don't even believe in? You can't even bring yourself to say "He" for crying out loud.

But the answer of course is that everything and anything God does is moral because He is the source of all morality and can do no evil. He is the judge of you - not the other way round.

And the other answer is .... I forget that one but it's really good

Meade

[Andrew D]

Oh, please.

Your assertion that God's "power is to save and condemn" -- that God "has the last word" -- is predicated on the Bible's being true. My observation is likewise predicated on the Bible's being true.

You don't like that predication? Fine. Let's throw it overboard. I won't predicate any assertions on the Bible's being true, if you won't either.

And as the Scot said to Mr. Humphries, "where'd'ya think yer goin' wi'that?"

But the answer of course is that everything and anything God does is moral because He is the source of all morality and can do no evil.

Uh huh. So when God pretended to endow human beings with moral sense, he was joking.

And as the Scot said ....