Gov. Scott Walker - Un-American?

[dgs49]

Let's see...if I wanted to attract the best possible candidates to be public school teachers...how would I go about it?

First, I'd insist on a unionized workforce. That way, there would be no incentive whatsoever to do one's best, there would be no turnover (no one ever gets fired), and all the positions and assignments that offer additional money would go to the ones with the most seniority, rather than the ones who would most likely perform best.

Then, I would make it virtually impossible for any mid-career professional (say, an engineer or a chemist or a CPA or an attorney) to enter the "profession" without first having to give up a year or more of their life (without pay) in training, and then force them to start at the absolute bottom of the scale, regardless of their credentials or knowledge.

Certainly, I would have an inviolable pay scale, so that the employer could never offer superior candidates - say someone with an Ivy League degree or a "real" Masters Degree - any more than the slug with a history degree who only got hired because his uncle was on the school board.

Let's see...no incentive to perform...a dozen years or more before you make a decent paycheck...having to work an entire career beside burnouts who could never make it anyplace else...spending an entire career having the plum assignments go to people for no reason other than seniority...

Oh yeah, this has the makings of an All Star Teaching Team! I CAN'T EVEN IMAGINE why our top college grads don't go into teaching!

And as for teachers being responsible for the best outcomes (domestically or internationally), I say, baloney. The best outcomes are in communities where the parents are educated and give a shit. You could take the faculty from the worst "non-performing" high school in Detroit, put them into one of the top suburban schools in Grosse Point, and the "outcomes" would not change a bit. And switching positions the other way around wouldn't make those urban kids any better students, either. A good principal can make a difference, and maybe the occasional superior teacher, but as the expression goes...

GarbageInGarbageOut

[Big RR]

And as for teachers being responsible for the best outcomes (domestically or internationally), I say, baloney. The best outcomes are in communities where the parents are educated and give a shit. You could take the faculty from the worst "non-performing" high school in Detroit, put them into one of the top suburban schools in Grosse Point, and the "outcomes" would not change a bit. And switching positions the other way around wouldn't make those urban kids any better students, either. A good principal can make a difference, and maybe the occasional superior teacher, but as the expression goes...

If this is really true why would you want to pay more to attract better teachers who won't make a bit of difference? Just put the worst in the position and the "good" students will still thrive while the "bad" students, who teaches and how good they are is, for the most part (except for the "occasional" good teacher), immaterial. You honestly believe that?

and wile we're at it, why would anyone with anything on the ball (like your mid career scientists, CPAs, and attorneys) want to get involved with a relatively low paid, low prestige position that won't make a difference anyway? It's attitudes like yours that reveal the need for unions and tenure.

[oldr_n_wsr]

I dp have to say there is some truth to dgs49's posts about unions. There are a few non-union districts on Long Island and they are always in the top 10% (and probably in the top 5%, just don't have the numbers in front of me). Of course all of those districts can be considered in the "rich" area's (aka +$200,000 average household income). I happened to attend one while in high school but we were in the "poor" part of the district. In case anyone wants to look it up it's the East Williston School District and we lived in the small corner of Mineola that went to the East Williston School district rather than the Mineola School district.

There is also some truth to this

Then, I would make it virtually impossible for any mid-career professional (say, an engineer or a chemist or a CPA or an attorney) to enter the "profession" without first having to give up a year or more of their life (without pay) in training, and then force them to start at the absolute bottom of the scale, regardless of their credentials or knowledge.

As a mid-(latter)career professional, in order for me to even apply to teach I would need a masters (or agree to complete one in the first year) and would start off with first year teachers salary. Had I done so fresh out of college, I would be int he $100,000 range with 25 years seniority (aka, no layoffs here, but maybe a generous retirements package over and above what I had signed on for as they want to dump my salary/benies for more than one rooky). Too bad I had no patience back then or I might have chosen the profession. I have more than enough patience for it now and if hte pay way halfway betweent he top and the bottom, I would consider going into it (although with all the financial problems districts are having now, massive layoffs looming, it doesn't seem like a good move).

[Big RR]

oldr--

I dp have to say there is some truth to dgs49's posts about unions. There are a few non-union districts on Long Island and they are always in the top 10% (and probably in the top 5%, just don't have the numbers in front of me). Of course all of those districts can be considered in the "rich" area's (aka +$200,000 average household income). I happened to attend one while in high school but we were in the "poor" part of the district. In case anyone wants to look it up it's the East Williston School District and we lived in the small corner of Mineola that went to the East Williston School district rather than the Mineola School district.

Well it would appear that the citizens of those districts do not share dgs49's view that a good teacher will rarely, if ever, makes a difference and, by analogy, that it doesn't make sense to pay for quality. Sadly many others share that view and would gladly get rid of the good teachers because they cost too much and don't make a difference anyway, which leads to unionization for job protection. It would be nice if everyone were as enlightened as those in the districts you write about, but sadly they are not. And FWIW,I'd bet there are many unionized districts in the top 5 or 10% of school systems in Long Island as well. But face it, if teachers were treated as professionals and fairly compensated (like I'd bet they are in the districts you write about) they never would have unionized, it's sad that short sighted persons forced them into it.

As for getting employment as a teacher, I have several friends (scientists and engineers) who made such career changes and who worked while they took courses at night; pay was not great while in the training (around 12-18 months), but once they were licensed they received higher pay based on the experience and advanced degrees and were not relegated to starting teacher pay. If you're interested it might make sense to look into NJ as a possibility.

[Grim Reaper]

And as for teachers being responsible for the best outcomes (domestically or internationally), I say, baloney. The best outcomes are in communities where the parents are educated and give a shit. You could take the faculty from the worst "non-performing" high school in Detroit, put them into one of the top suburban schools in Grosse Point, and the "outcomes" would not change a bit. And switching positions the other way around wouldn't make those urban kids any better students, either. A good principal can make a difference, and maybe the occasional superior teacher, but as the expression goes...

Teachers do make a difference. People (like you) thinking they don't is just part of the problem this country faces.

And if they don't make a difference, then why do you care about them being unionized or non-unionized? Why does that matter if they're just bobbleheads who accomplish nothing on their own? I guess we should just roll out televisions and VCRs with pre-recorded lessons.

[Long Run]

From DG:

And as for teachers being responsible for the best outcomes (domestically or internationally), I say, baloney. The best outcomes are in communities where the parents are educated and give a shit..

Teachers do make a difference. People (like you) thinking they don't is just part of the problem this country faces.

You are both right. Individual above average teachers do make a difference. However, DGs is also correct that the biggest factor in how a school's students perform is the socio-economic background of the parents. Unless you can install an entire faculty of above average teachers, the teachers as a whole are a non-factor in determining the overall performance of the school's students. This is why one avenue of education reform is to improve the overall quality of teaching -- if you can improve the below average and average teachers (move them from being D and C teachers to being C and B teachers), then teachers as a whole would be a meaningful factor in the overall performance. But this is unlikely to happen due to the factors mentioned above.

[Big RR]

Long run--then I guess you don't agree with dgs when he says:

You could take the faculty from the worst "non-performing" high school in Detroit, put them into one of the top suburban schools in Grosse Point, and the "outcomes" would not change a bit. And switching positions the other way around wouldn't make those urban kids any better students, either.

?

And as for improving "the overall quality of teaching", what standard do you use to measure this quality?

[rubato]

From DG:

And as for teachers being responsible for the best outcomes (domestically or internationally), I say, baloney. The best outcomes are in communities where the parents are educated and give a shit..

Teachers do make a difference. People (like you) thinking they don't is just part of the problem this country faces.

You are both right. Individual above average teachers do make a difference. However, DGs is also correct that the biggest factor in how a school's students perform is the socio-economic background of the parents. Unless you can install an entire faculty of above average teachers, the teachers as a whole are a non-factor in determining the overall performance of the school's students. This is why one avenue of education reform is to improve the overall quality of teaching -- if you can improve the below average and average teachers (move them from being D and C teachers to being C and B teachers), then teachers as a whole would be a meaningful factor in the overall performance. But this is unlikely to happen due to the factors mentioned above.

The most reliable predictor of success is the level of education of the parents. In other words, what you do for this generation has a magnified effect in the next one; whether positively or negatively.

Steve Jobs (dropped out of Reed College after 1 year) and Steve Wozniak (Dropped out of UC Berkeley and then went back and finished his degree after Apple was a raging success) were made by the fact that we educated THEIR PARENTS and others of their parents generation. It is vital to continue to invest in the future just as my grandparents and parents did.

Making teachers the enemy is a certain recipe for failure.


yrs,
rubato

[dgs49]

Let me be clear, I believe that a cadre of outstanding teachers could absolutely make a difference, even in school districts where the incoming students are, shall we say, lacking.

But they cannot make a difference in an environment (union or otherwise) where there in no incentive to perform at the top level, and where it is impossible to get rid of those who are not performing.

In many school districts, the compensation levels are sufficient to attract the best candidates, but the best candidates are not always hired, and those who are, are subject to a System that is really not geared to maximizing performance. (If performance is not measured, how can it be maximized?).

I would gladly pay a premium in taxes to get a school system that produced the best possible results, through innovation, incentives, and real attempts to optimize outcomes.

Teachers' unions are the greatest obstacle to education in this country. They should be abolished.

[oldr_n_wsr]

And FWIW,I'd bet there are many unionized districts in the top 5 or 10% of school systems in Long Island as well. But face it, if teachers were treated as professionals and fairly compensated (like I'd bet they are in the districts you write about) they never would have unionized, it's sad that short sighted persons forced them into it.

There are quite a few unionized districts on Long Island who are among the top (however you define it). More than one had finalists in the Intel Science competition and a young lady won 2nd place (and she happens to be blind).

I have to admit while I bitch and moan about $100,000+ salaries, the education my kids got (from a middle tier district, Sachem) was very good. I just have a hard time coming to grips the sacrifices all us tax payers make (no raises, more and more employee contributions to health care, 401k's rather than employer paid pensions) with ever higher school taxes (almost 70% of my property taxes) supporting no employee donation pensions and little if any employee donation health benefits (for the employee and spouse, for life) and they make a comparable salary to anyone with similar education in the private sector.The time of having a lesser salary for better benefits in the public sector jobs has come and gone. Public sector has become the equal and better employer.

As for getting employment as a teacher, I have several friends (scientists and engineers) who made such career changes and who worked while they took courses at night; pay was not great while in the training (around 12-18 months), but once they were licensed they received higher pay based on the experience and advanced degrees and were not relegated to starting teacher pay. If you're interested it might make sense to look into NJ as a possibility.

Looking into it as we speak. Even engineering jobs seem to be more plentiful off this sandbar.
Of course I am thinking about going to motorcycle mechanics school also. I fix my and my sons bikes and have alsways been mechanically inclined. How about Oldr_N_Wsr Choppers???

[Crackpot]

WE got quite a few engineering jobs round here at the moment Pick up a forclosure and move Michigan way.

[Crackpot]

heck give me a couple months and you can buy my condo for whatever price you can get the bank to accept.