Electricity generating windmills

[MGMcAnick]

Kansas has lots of wind. That being the case, we also have hundreds of electricity producing windmills around here. My local electric company says that just over a third of the electricity we pay for comes from their (leased) wind generators. Two local large natural gas fired generation plants have been shut down in the last five years or so, but we still have our nuke. One "wind farm" extends for 23 miles along I-70. I should have counted them, but I was driving, and would have probably missed a few. Suffice it to say there are a bunch of them. Personally I think they are kind of neat. I like them. I have driven right up to the base of one, just to listen to the woosh, woosh, woosh. I didn't see any dead birds.

I have heard an unsubstantiated statement, many times, that the wind generators, with their three 125' long blades, don't really save any oil or natural gas. It is said that their manufacture uses more oil, gas, and other resources than they will ever save. Their cost is supposedly astronomical. ??

Does anyone know if those statements are true? Where might I find factual information about this issue?

[Scooter]

Apparently the claim came from a meme someone created that grossly misrepresented what someone said.

Critics of wind energy often claim that the energy used to construct a wind turbine outweighs the energy produced during its lifetime in operation. This is not correct. An evidence review published in the journal Renewable Energy in 2010, which included data from 119 turbines across 50 sites going back 30 years, concluded that the average windfarm produces 20-25 times more energy during its operational life than was used to construct and install its turbines. It also found that the average "energy payback" of a turbine was 3-6 months.

link

[Guinevere]

I would say that in reality, the payback is somewhat longer. My town has two turbines, and I believe the payback was closer to 10 years. Perhaps that has shortened over time. Our electricity bills remain quite reasonable, since those turbines generate enough electricity to power all our municipal lighting requirements (but not homes and businesses). I do note that blade disposal is a significant problem, with end of useful lifespan problems starting to build. They don’t last forever.

I litigated some wind turbine cases a decade or so ago, and it proved to be the end of their surge in the Commonwealth. For all of the issues and concerns, Massachusetts moved to incentiving solar and away from wind, and many large installations never got built or were successfully challenged. I still think we need both.

[MGMcAnick]

Thank you for your fast replies.

Yes, getting rid of the units at the end of their useful lives is another issue.

The local electric company has also installed one large solar array, and has another off of the drawing board and about to be built. I don't know which is more cost effective.

[ex-khobar Andy]

Data I looked at - probably 10 or 15 years ago now - was that the capital cost of making a turbine was similar, in per MW generated, to the capital cost of a traditional fossil fuel plant. 'Similar' in this context means better than an order of magnitude. I just looked it up - still true. In those days solar was much more expensive than it is now: solar panels are probably 10 x more efficient in converting light to power than they then were.

Nuclear was then, and still is, the most expensive both from an initial capital sense and final dismantling and disposal costs. The cost of the fuel is almost negligible in the total capital and operational costs.

I don't recall, back in those days, that disposal costs for the blades was a big issue. They are usually a composite fiberglass type material which lasts forever. You would think that it could be used for clean fill or rip-rap.

[Bicycle Bill]

I would say that in reality, the payback is somewhat longer. My town has two turbines, and I believe the payback was closer to 10 years. Perhaps that has shortened over time. Our electricity bills remain quite reasonable, since those turbines generate enough electricity to power all our municipal lighting requirements (but not homes and businesses). I do note that blade disposal is a significant problem, with end of useful lifespan problems starting to build. They don’t last forever.

I litigated some wind turbine cases a decade or so ago, and it proved to be the end of their surge in the Commonwealth. For all of the issues and concerns, Massachusetts moved to incentiving solar and away from wind, and many large installations never got built or were successfully challenged. I still think we need both.

We also need to go forward with nuclear power.  Rather odd, isn't it, that almost every major ship in the US Navy depends on nuclear power for propulsion, but we're still digging/pumping up and burning fossil fuels to do just about everything else?

As for the inherent problems, such as what to do with the nuclear waste/spent fuel, I point you back to the ten-year program that put an American man on the moon — and it would have happened sooner than that if it hadn't have been for the Apollo-1 launch-pad fire.  If we could go from watching as someone else launched the first artificial satellite AND put the first man into space (a complete orbit, btw, not just the glorified up-and-down elevator rides of Shepard and Grissom that merely scratched the surface of space) to putting two men onto the surface of the moon AND THEN SAFELY GETTING THEM BACK, not just once but SIX TIMES (three additional missions were cancelled due to budget constraints and re-allocation of resources to the Apollo-Soyuz joint mission and the development of "Uncle Sam's REALLY Long-Haul Trucking Company" — otherwise known as the Space Shuttles), we ought to be able to solve a little thing like what to do with depleted uranium fuel rods or unravel the secrets behind cold fusion.

-"BB"-

[Methuselah]

It’s hard to separate the wheat from the corporate PR. Remember when they said cigarettes are good for you, quoting a doctor? The power stuff makes it really hard to get the truth. Gas plants are really cheap to buy now because no one wants them. Getting rid of turbine blades is much less of a problem than disposing of coal ash or paying the hidden costs of gas burning on air quality. I welcome the sight of windmills when I drive past them. I plan to get solar power the next time we need a new roof on the house. Gas in all its forms, including that whatever-you-call it where they pump dirty water in the ground, is in the same category with me as cigarettes. Those killed my dad too early, and I vote against their interests every time I get a chance. Unfortunately, their well-paid lawyers are much nimbler than my local politicians and public interest groups. It is kind of like Bye/Don. I don’t know how to overcome his skill in getting free media coverage. I’d say I want him to ride a bike like recent pictures of Biden show, except I don’t want the Secret Service knocking on my door.