40 years ago . . .

[BoSoxGal]

What would be done with the congressional black caucus leader who said most Americans are niggers?

One can only wonder.

[MajGenl.Meade]

"It's so wonderful that John Lennon was an awful person and not 100% perfect like me," said nobody. Ever.

[Not a response to BSG's post]

[TPFKA@W]

John would be crucified if he said all of that today. Also, Dick Cavett's show would be cancelled and his home would be torched by white privileged women.

He would also have to issue an apology until he was blue in the face, which would be misinterpreted as blackface, and would have had to apologize for that as well.

Seriously, I would love to see how his legacy would have turned out were he not canonized as St. John upon his death.

[Gob]

Now I have not doubt some did act heroically,

Cornish boy did well...

At 8:46 a.m. on the morning of September 11, 2001, American Airlines Flight 11 struck the North Tower of the World Trade Center (Tower 1). Rescorla heard the explosion and saw the tower burning from his office window in the 44th floor of the South Tower (Tower 2). When a Port Authority announcement came over the P.A. system urging people to stay at their desks, Rescorla ignored the announcement, grabbed his bullhorn, walkie-talkie, and cell phone, and began systematically ordering Morgan Stanley employees to evacuate, including the 1,000 employees in WTC 5. He directed people down a stairwell from the 44th floor, continuing to calm employees after the building lurched violently following the crash of United Airlines Flight 175 38 floors above into Tower 2 at 9:03 A.M. Morgan Stanley executive Bill McMahon stated that even a group of 250 people visiting the offices for a stockbroker training class knew what to do because they had been shown the nearest stairway.

Rescorla had boosted morale among his men in Vietnam by singing Cornish songs from his youth, and now he did the same in the stairwell, singing songs such as one based on the Welsh song "Men of Harlech":

"Men of Cornwall stop your dreaming, Can’t you see their spearpoints gleaming?
See their warriors’ pennants streaming, To this battlefield.
Men of Cornwall stand ye steady, It cannot be ever said ye
For the battle were not ready. Stand and never yield!"

Between songs, Rescorla called his wife, telling her, "Stop crying. I have to get these people out safely. If something should happen to me, I want you to know I've never been happier. You made my life."

After successfully evacuating most of Morgan Stanley's 2,687 employees, he went back into the building.When one of his colleagues told him he too had to evacuate the World Trade Center, Rescorla replied, "As soon as I make sure everyone else is out."

He was last seen on the 10th floor, heading upward, shortly before the South Tower collapsed at 9:59 A.M. His remains were never found. Rescorla was declared dead three weeks after the attacks

[MGMcAnick]

He has also been described as a pathological liar but I haven’t fully investigated that claim.

So he should have run for public office??

[BoSoxGal]

He was last seen on the 10th floor, heading upward, shortly before the South Tower collapsed at 9:59 A.M. His remains were never found. Rescorla was declared dead three weeks after the attacks

Definitely a hero.

Hypothetically speaking, would we think so even if he yelled at or even slapped his wife? His kids?

Humans are messy creatures.

[Big RR]

Maybe, maybe not; but it would not diminish the heroism inherent in his selfless act. A friend of mine was in the south tower and, after the plane hit the north tower, chose not to evacuate but to go up to a floor above to be sure the others in the office had left; sadly, the south tower was then hit below her and she could not get out; some that she urged to leave did get out, however. She called her husband to talk with him before the collapse and apparently jumped before the fire reached her and the south tower collapsed. A true hero IMHO.

As I recall, I was taught that a hero exhibited great courage and (not or) admirable moral qualities, so other actions could taint one's view of the person, but not the heroism of the act. It's kind of like the term "saint"; leaving aside religious politics (that's for another thread), the term saint was generally reserved for someone believe to be unusually close to god, as evidenced by their selfless acts, but over the years the term has been diluted to often refer to anyone who does a good deed, even a small one, or even someone who suffered suffered for whatever reason ("the woman was a saint for putting up with the abuse"). IMHO, it's kind of like the "everyone gets a trophy" view in today's society; anyone is a hero or saint.

[BoSoxGal]

Other than superheroes who are not real, real heroes are human beings who shit piss do dumb stuff do sometimes nasty stuff and have fundamental flaws alongside their heroism.

I’m much more flummoxed by the notion that heroes belong on pedestals and are somehow always heroic.

Yes, anybody CAN be a hero, and there are billions of everyday heroes in the world. Possibly billions will never do anything remotely heroic the entirety of their lives, but since heroism is to some degree in the eye of the beholder, I’m not so sure.

I don’t believe there is an objective standard for hero, I certainly am not persuaded to accept BigRR’s standard. There are obviously cases where a great many people would say ‘yes that’s heroism’, but there are far more cases I’m sure where what one person recognizes as heroic behavior another might reject outright.

Please don’t forget that millions of people think Donald J Trump is a hero. The j stands for genius, you know!

[ex-khobar Andy]

Lord Nelson springs to mind - Lady Hamilton saw his column frequently.

[Big RR]

But what's the point of a hero if it's not to be placed on a pedestal, looked up to, and emulated? I concede that many may perform heroic acts, but if Charles Mason once risked his life to save someone from being hit by a car, he would have done something heroic, but would not be a "hero" IMHO.

[BoSoxGal]

Okay so how many heroic things must be done to be called a hero? Heroic acts weekly? Monthly? Yearly? Surely not daily?

Or do certain heroes get to be called that all their lives for one act even if 99.9999% of the remainder of their lives is mundanity, and others not? Is that because some heroic acts seem proportionately more heroic so that person IS a hero while others only ACT heroic?

Just trying to get my mind around the distinctions. Seems a lot like verb conjugation the more I think on it.

[Crackpot]

Please don’t forget that millions of people think Donald J Trump is a hero. The j stands for genius, you know!

Ahem. It’s spelled JEANEYUS

[Big RR]

Or do certain heroes get to be called that all their lives for one act even if 99.9999% of the remainder of their lives is mundanity, and others not? Is that because some heroic acts seem proportionately more heroic so that person IS a hero while others only ACT heroic?

Perhaps, like everything else, it depends on the particular act; but as I said, as I was taught, a hero, in addition to acting heroically exhibits high moral character. No matter what he did, I would never consider Charles Manson a hero, or Trump for that matter. But then I think the term should be reserved for the rare few (just as I feel about the term "champion") and calling everyone a hero gives the term much less meaning.

And FWIW, going back to the OP, while I don't consider Lennon a "hero", I do consider his musical talent and composing as proving he is a genius in his field, along with the likes of Mozart and Beethoven.

Also, people can be flawed and not be called a "hero" because of the flaws, but it does not diminish the heroic acts they perform.

To me a hero is akin Potter Stewart's definition of pornography, I know it when I see it. If others are less rigid with how they apply the term, that's fine with me

[ex-khobar Andy]

We had a discussion about heroism a year or more ago, and IIRC Ray posted something about the Carnegie Hero Fund. I meant to respond at the time with this, but never did for some reason. I think I was wanting permission from my wife.

We have this hanging on our dining room wall. We've hung it for 20 years or so and when we've gone our daughter will have it.



Anthony Illingworth was my wife's uncle, and in 1932 he was 12. He and his younger brother and another boy were playing by the stream at Walton-le-Dale, Lancashire (N England, 30 miles or so north of Manchester and Liverpool) and the little lad fell in. Anthony jumped in to save his brother, and their friend ran to a nearby farm to get help. By the time help arrived it was too late. Both boys had drowned.

The Carnegie Trust Hero Fund recognized Anthony's heroism and I assume it was some comfort to the boys' mother and their big sister (my mother-in-law). We will continue to honour Anthony and remember his brother.

Ordinary people can be heroes too when circumstances demand.