American democracy is fighting for its life

[Gob]

On Sunday, the West Virginia senator Joe Manchin announced in an op-ed in the Charleston Gazette-Mail that he opposes the For the People Act. He also opposes ending the filibuster.

An op-ed in the most prominent state newspaper is about as non-negotiable a position a senator can assert.

It was a direct thumb-in-your-eye response to President Biden’s thinly veiled criticism of Manchin last Tuesday in Tulsa, where Biden explained why he was having difficulty getting passage of what was supposed to be his highest priority – new voting rights legislation that would supersede a raft of new voter suppression laws in Republican-dominated states, using Trump’s baseless claim of voter fraud as pretext.

“I hear all the folks on TV saying, ‘Why doesn’t Biden get this done?’” Biden asked rhetorically in Tulsa. “Well, because Biden only has a majority of effectively four votes in the House, and a tie in the Senate, with two members of the Senate who vote more with my Republican friends. But we’re not giving up.”

Everyone knew he was referring to Manchin, as well as Arizona Senator Kyrsten Sinema, another Democratic holdout.

Manchin’s very public repudiation of Biden on Sunday could mean the end of the For the People Act. That opens the way for Republican states to continue their shameless campaign of voter suppression – very possibly giving Republicans a victory in the 2022 midterm elections and entrenching Republican rule for a generation.

As it is, registered Republicans make up only about 25% of the American electorate, and that percentage appears to be shrinking in the wake of Trump’s malodorous exit.

But because rural Republican states like Wyoming (with 574,000 inhabitants) get two senators just as do urban ones like California (with nearly 40 million), and because Republican states have gerrymandered districts that elect House members to give them an estimated 19 extra seats over what they would have without gerrymandering, the scales were already tipped.

Then came the post-Trump deluge of state laws making it harder for likely Democrats to vote, and easier for Republican state legislatures to manipulate voting tallies.

Manchin says he supports extending the John Lewis Voting Rights Act to all 50 states. That’s small comfort.

The original 1965 Voting Rights Act was struck down by the supreme court in 2013, on the dubious logic that it was no longer needed because states with a history of suppressing Black votes no longer did so. (Note that within 24 hours of the ruling, Texas announced it would implement a strict photo ID law, and Mississippi and Alabama soon followed.)

The efficacy of a new national Voting Rights Act would depend on an activist justice department willing to block state changes in voting laws that suppress votes and on an activist supreme court willing to uphold such justice department decisions. Don’t bet on either. We know what happened to the justice department under Trump, and we know what’s happened to the supreme court.

Besides, a new Voting Rights Act wouldn’t be able to roll back the most recent round of voter suppression laws from Republican states.

Without Manchin, then, the For the People Act is probably dead, unless Biden can convince one Republican senator to join Senate Democrats in supporting it – like, say, Utah’s Mitt Romney, who has publicly rebuked Trump for lying about the 2020 election and has something of a reputation for being an institutionalist who cares about American democracy.

Yet given Trump’s continuing hold over the shrinking Republican party, any Republican senator who joined with the Democrats in supporting the For the People Act would probably be ending their political career. Profiles in courage make good copy for political obituaries and memorials.

I’m afraid history will show that, in this shameful era, Republican senators were more united in their opposition to voting rights than Democratic senators were in their support for them.

The future of American democracy needs better odds.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... epublicans

[liberty]

What is oppressive about requiring an individual to present a state-issued ID to Vote? How many people can there possibly be that can't get a diver license or official state identification card? You do know that the state issues official identification cards as well diver licenses. There is nothing that prevents volunteers from helping people to obtain a stated photo ID. If a state's voting law does prevent a citizen from voting, it would be unconstitutional, so take it to court and get a ruling. I don't like this law because it takes power away from the states and gives it to the federal government. That is the same thing the Mexicans did in the 1800s, and look how well it works out for them.

Also so you want to take power away from democracies and give it to a republic. The states are democracies, and the federal government is a republic. When was the last time the people in the United States voted on a national law or tax? It frequently happens in the states. We vote down tax increases all the time in my state.

[Big RR]

How do the state governments substantively differ from the federal government so that they are not a republic? There is not a state that does not use an elected government with varying terms who exercise power on behalf of the electorate. So, How are they "democracies" as you view them?

[liberty]

How do the state governments substantively differ from the federal government so that they are not a republic? There is not a state that does not use an elected government with varying terms who exercise power on behalf of the electorate. So, How are they "democracies" as you view them?

The states function both as democracies and republics. Representatives govern states on a day to day basis, but from time to time the people take over vote for laws they want. I wonder what condition the nation would be in if the people could do the same thing on a national level? I wonder if there would be a national income tax?

[Joe Guy]

You mean like a federal income tax?

Interesting concept.

[Econoline]

[Big RR]

How do the state governments substantively differ from the federal government so that they are not a republic? There is not a state that does not use an elected government with varying terms who exercise power on behalf of the electorate. So, How are they "democracies" as you view them?

The states function both as democracies and republics. Representatives govern states on a day to day basis, but from time to time the people take over vote for laws they want. I wonder what condition the nation would be in if the people could do the same thing on a national level? I wonder if there would be a national income tax?

As I recall, only about half of the states have initiative and referendum statutes allowing the public to place questions on the ballot.

[Scooter]

And as recent experience in Michigan (redistricting), Missouri (Medicaid expansion), and Florida (ex-felon voting rights) has shown, legislatures in those states do everything in their power to thwart the will of the people.

[BoSoxGal]

Sadly I’m nearly convinced that I’ll be watching it take its last breaths in these final years of my run on the rock. With a side of burning planet and sixth great extinction. Should be a wonderful last supper.

[Jarlaxle]

Anyone who refers to the United States as a democracy should not be permitted to vote unless and until he or she passes a college-level course in civics.

[Scooter]

Anyone who engages in the democracy vs. representative republic semantic bullshit does so because they have nothing of actual value to add to the discussion.

[Big RR]

It certainly seems that way. Jarl, what aspect of a republic do you think most, or even many, people who call the US a democracy are unaware of. I bet the vast majority of people have at least a basic understanding of our representative form of government.

And FWIW, how many colleges are you aware of that even offer a course in civcis? That's an elementary or middle school subject.

[ex-khobar Andy]

What Scooter said.

[BoSoxGal]

It certainly seems that way. Jarl, what aspect of a republic do you think most, or even many, people who call the US a democracy are unaware of. I bet the vast majority of people have at least a basic understanding of our representative form of government.

And FWIW, how many colleges are you aware of that even offer a course in civcis? That's an elementary or middle school subject.

You lose your bet, BigRR.

A Look at Civics Education in the United States

Only 26% of Americans can name all three branches of government as of 2016 according to an Annenberg study.

On Morning Joe the other day, they played a clip of a January 6 insurrectionist filming himself storming the Capitol - and bragging about being in the White House. It’s too sickening to be funny.

This country is being destroyed by empty headed cultists who never even bothered to learn the basics about the ideals the country was built on or the structure of government meant to embody and preserve those ideals.

Since many of them are my age and grew up when civics education was fairly strong, they have no excuse other than that they obviously didn’t pay attention in school and never bothered learning anything more beyond school.

Children today (and for the past few decades I guess) haven’t been exposed to much if any civics education, depending on where they had the misfortune to be educated. 11 states have none, only 9 states (and DC) require a year of civics, 30 states have a half year.

They don’t even have Schoolhouse Rock today, unless they find it on YouTube.

It’s no wonder a confidence man like Trump can come along and manipulate them into hating their fellow countrymen and attacking the very ideals upon which their country was founded.

[ex-khobar Andy]

We never had any course covering 'civics' (however named). We did however have Tom Peters (nominally an English lit teacher) who would get through the curriculum in 20 minutes of a 40 minute class and then sit on a desk: "OK, what do you want to talk about?"

Politics, sex, sport (Tom was Welsh and a rugby fanatic), history, travel - nothing was off the table.

[Big RR]

Not really; I would bet that the majority of people know that we elect representatives to act on our behalf in Washington, and have a pretty good idea of what Congress and the president are even if they cannot name the specific branches. They are also aware that there are courts that will try criminal and civil matters (again, even if they don't know the difference between the two) and rule on the constitutionality of laws (as this is played up a lot in the news). Sure, they should have a better foundation in it, but I do think a big majority of the persons who call the US a democracy understand that at the very least. Jarl is making a big deal of of people calling us a democracy as being somehow being unamerican, and I would like to know exactly what he thinks those persons do not know.

Again, we all should understand it better, but FWIW, it wasn't until law school that I really understood the difference between the federal and state courts (and then only after a federal jurisdiction course) even though I had civics in 6th and 7th grade. Ditto for conflicts of law among the states and how they are handled (until taking a conflicts of law course).

[liberty]

What Scooter said.

Democracy comes from two Greek words that mean people rule. How in the hell are the people ruling when they elect a reprehensive to do certain things based on his campaign promises, but when he gets in office, he ignores his campaign promises and does what he wants. How in the hell is that a democracy, the rule of the people. No, that is a republic. At least Trump tried hard to full fill his campaign promises.

[Scooter]

democracy [ dih-mok-ruh-see ]

noun, plural de·moc·ra·cies.

1. government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.
2. a state having such a form of government: The United States and Canada are democracies.
3. a state of society characterized by formal equality of rights and privileges.
4. political or social equality; democratic spirit.
5. the common people of a community as distinguished from any privileged class; the common people with respect to their political power.

Now that the illiterates have been dealt with, we now return you to the actual topic.

[Big RR]

What Scooter said.

Democracy comes from two Greek words that mean people rule. How in the hell are the people ruling when they elect a reprehensive to do certain things based on his campaign promises, but when he gets in office, he ignores his campaign promises and does what he wants. How in the hell is that a democracy, the rule of the people. No, that is a republic. At least Trump tried hard to full fill his campaign promises.

Of course, he also tried to ignore or subvert the will of the people expressed at the polls when he didn't like the result. And that is the essence of the beginning of a dictatorship, one we have avoided, for now.

[ex-khobar Andy]

What Scooter said.

Democracy comes from two Greek words that mean people rule. How in the hell are the people ruling when they elect a reprehensive to do certain things based on his campaign promises, but when he gets in office, he ignores his campaign promises and does what he wants. How in the hell is that a democracy, the rule of the people. No, that is a republic. At least Trump tried hard to full fill his campaign promises.

Oh FFS lib. Either you are being purposely obtuse or you are as thick as your guy Trump. I don't actually think that you are Trumpishly inane - or maybe I'm just one of life's optimists - but even for you that is rich. (BTW I do like the 'reprehensive' coinage.). Trump lied and lied and lied - there is no doubt about that. How did he 'try' to get Mexico to pay for his wall? No-one had more empty promises that that wet fart.

BTW Athenian democracy did, as you suggest, require that all attend meetings. That soon got out of hand and people they elected to get stuff done actually did the heavy lifting. And 'all' of course did not include women or slaves.