Interesting article on denial.

[Gob]

No, not the river in Egypt.

What should we do about people who refuse to get vaccinated, or who continue to deny that Covid is real?

Debate on this issue has raged for months in the US. “Respect them!” scolded conservative commentators. “Shame them!” urged some. Others counselled empathy for them as victims of disinformation.

But as the surging Delta variant ushers in the “pandemic of the unvaccinated”, uncertainty about persuading pandemic holdouts has given way to anger and despair. This was exemplified by the recent public reaction to a viral news video showing a Louisiana man recovering from a severe Covid-19 infection in a hospital bed, stating that he would still rather have had to be in hospital than accept a vaccine. It was the first time many of us saw the human face of a puzzling phenomenon which healthcare workers have been telling us about since last year: patients denying the realities of the virus even as they lay sick and dying from it.

As Leo Tolstoy famously asked of another seemingly hopeless social problem – poverty – “what then must we do?” The sociology of fraud, one of my research specialties for the past decade, offers some answers.

In 1952, the sociologist Erving Goffman analysed the art of the con in a seminal essay, On Cooling the Mark Out. To understand the phenomenon, he identified a cast of characters: first, the “operator”, who perpetrates the con; second, the “mark”, the target of the con; and third, the “cooler”, an ally of the con artist who attempts to console the victim once the fraud has become apparent “in a way that makes it easy for him to accept the inevitable and quietly go home”.

Goffman observed that all “marks” eventually come to understand that they have been defrauded. But strangely, they almost never complain or report the crime to the authorities. Why? Because, Goffman argues, admitting that you have been conned is so deeply shameful that “marks” experience it as a kind of social death – the painful end of one of the many social roles we all play.

Instead, many “marks” simply deny the con, claiming they were “in on it” the whole time. This saves their pride and cheats social death, but it allows the con to continue unchecked, entrapping others. By prioritising their self-image over the common good, “marks” make a cowardly, selfish choice. Goffman doesn’t shrink from calling this out as a “moral failure”.


Continues here...

[ex-khobar Andy]

Yes, this. I'd go a step further and blame what I call the Disneyfication of America. And yes, other places too but it seems to be worst here.

Disney was forever having the winner be the underdog who challenged authority. It's no bad thing to look at the basics of assumptions to see if there is a flaw there: but when this is translated to what appears to be its moral equivalent, you get a sophistry.

Winners challenge conventional wisdom = those who challenge conventional wisdom, win.

Of course those are not identical statements but too much Disney watching in your youth mght convince you that they are.

The Guardian piece could equally have been written about climate change, with the same cast of characters.

Rousseau, Kant, Jefferson et al of the Enlightenment would be spinning in their graves if they had believed in that sort of thing.

[Long Run]

I don't agree. Actually, the article is more of a con than the con it is supposedly exposing. Aren't we superior to these dupes!

First, the COVID is not real faction is very small. It's a carnival side show, and in the click media it gets clicks but substantively it is not significant or newsworthy.

The unvaccinated by and large know exactly what they are doing. And most of the ones I know are intelligent. They have different reasons for their position: they've had COVID and believe the resulting anti-bodies provide them a natural immunization; they are in a low risk group, so they are happy to wait, and the more responsible of this group generally follow social distance guidelines while most selfishly put themselves and others at risk; and there are the true. anti-vaxers, those distrusters of the Everest like mountain of medical knowledge built day by day for decades and now centuries by smart, dedicated people applying the scientific method. This anti-vexers might be called marks as they buy books and other tripe provided by someone who has a non-mainstream medical approach that amounts to a molehill, and never has peer-review legitimacy. But again, the anti-vexers are a fraction of those who haven't gotten jabbed.

It seems more and more the best answer is to have the unvaccinated put their money where there mouths are -- no insurance or government medical program for those who get COVID. This is not like disease caused by life style -- it is more like having high blood pressure but refusing take the cheap medicine that is highly effective at controlling it, or not taking insulin to control diabetes, or drunk driving (a hazard to self and others).

[Crackpot]

I think you’re misting regional attitudes for broad based attitudes. Things shift when you move out of your area.

[Guinevere]

Agree with Crackpot. You’re underestimating the impact of the deniers. All those “small fractions” add up, to a fraction that is much too large in face of the Delta variant and what else may be coming.

The question is — would you rather wear a mask, stay home and shut down the economy again, or get a mandated vaccine. Because that’s next. I’m not a fan of overriding bodily autonomy, but it may be the only way out of this.

[Sue U]

Agree with Crackpot. You’re underestimating the impact of the deniers. All those “small fractions” add up, to a fraction that is much too large in face of the Delta variant and what else may be coming.

The question is — would you rather wear a mask, stay home and shut down the economy again, or get a mandated vaccine. Because that’s next. I’m not a fan of overriding bodily autonomy, but it may be the only way out of this.

We are closing in on 650,000 COVID deaths in the US alone; we mobilized a nation and fought a 20-year war costing untold trillions of dollars when 3,000 people were killed by a small gang of criminals. This is a goddamn genuine national emergency that will kill hundreds of thousands more and needs to be dealt with accordingly. Mandatory vaccination. Medical exemptions only. No more fucking around.

[MajGenl.Meade]

No, it isn't

[Sue U]

No, it isn't

Why would you think that?

[Crackpot]

Look at the thread title

[Sue U]

Ah, I misunderstood "it."

[ex-khobar Andy]

Meade's in denial, despite what he says.

[Big RR]

Sue and Guin, a question re mandatory vaccination--have we ever had it in the US (not mandatory vaccinations for school, but mandatory vaccination of everyone)? I don't recall every having heard of any and I seriously question whether it can work (unless we have vaccine storm troopers checking your card whenever you are in public) and jailing people until they are vaccinated, but I am more concerned that a mandatory order would galvanize resistance and have some otherwise intelligent people who support individual rights join with the yahoos. This would especially be the case if it was a federal mandate per executive order, as I seriously question whether we could get the bipartisan support needed to pass it in Congress. Add to this that the backlash would move Congress in the midterm elections to the antivax side in many states and would seriously derail a second Biden (or hwoever the dems run in his place) presidential run.

However, I do think we could go a long way to "encouraging" vaccination by making it mandatory to fly or use other methods of pubic transport and access other non essential services. However, I doubt any more stringent action would owrk.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Meade's in denial, despite what he says.

True dat

[Crackpot]

I think he’s in denial about being in denial

[Sue U]

Sue and Guin, a question re mandatory vaccination--have we ever had it in the US (not mandatory vaccinations for school, but mandatory vaccination of everyone)? I don't recall every having heard of any and I seriously question whether it can work (unless we have vaccine storm troopers checking your card whenever you are in public) and jailing people until they are vaccinated, but I am more concerned that a mandatory order would galvanize resistance and have some otherwise intelligent people who support individual rights join with the yahoos. This would especially be the case if it was a federal mandate per executive order, as I seriously question whether we could get the bipartisan support needed to pass it in Congress. Add to this that the backlash would move Congress in the midterm elections to the antivax side in many states and would seriously derail a second Biden (or hwoever the dems run in his place) presidential run.

However, I do think we could go a long way to "encouraging" vaccination by making it mandatory to fly or use other methods of pubic transport and access other non essential services. However, I doubt any more stringent action would owrk.

A vaccination mandate is probably not within the power of the federal government, but it is certainly within the province of a state's police powers regarding public health. The seminal case is Jacobson v. Massachusetts (1905), which upheld the Commonwealth's statute authorizing mandatory vaccination for all residents in response to a smallpox outbreak.

Apart from smallpox, vaccines are pretty much a mid-20th century invention, so there hasn't been a lot of history in which to apply mandates. But since there actually have been state-imposed mandatory vaccinations for schoolchildren since the 1960s, we have now reached the stage that almost all of the population has received a mandatory vaccination of some sort at some point. And as a result, smallpox has been virtually eliminated, measles/mumps/rubella/diphtheria/pertussis are rare, and even "harmless" chicken pox is no longer a common childhood illness.

But vaccination during a pandemic like COVID is not only about personal choice; this is a public health emergency where the unvaccinated pose a significant and ongoing risk to the rest of society by serving as breeding hosts for mutating strains of the virus which, if left unchecked, will eventually become vaccine resistant. The number of dead/seriously sickened, the strain on public health resources and the devastation of the economy resulting from an unabated pandemic justify mandatory vaccination. If the feds can't do it, I am all for imposing it on a state-by-state basis; let's compare the results we'd get here in NJ/NY/NE (presumably jurisdictions amenable to a mandate) with those in FL and TX.

ETA:

And I'd also be in favor of requiring proof of vaccination to use any public transit service and for air travel (feds could mandate for any interstate travel modes), non-essential services and probably for receiving certain types of public benefits (student financial aid, unemployment benefits and loan guarantees, off the top of my head).

[Bicycle Bill]

Sue and Guin, a question re mandatory vaccination--have we ever had it in the US (not mandatory vaccinations for school, but mandatory vaccination of everyone)? I don't recall every having heard of any and I seriously question whether it can work (unless we have vaccine storm troopers checking your card whenever you are in public) and jailing people until they are vaccinated, but I am more concerned that a mandatory order would galvanize resistance and have some otherwise intelligent people who support individual rights join with the yahoos. This would especially be the case if it was a federal mandate per executive order, as I seriously question whether we could get the bipartisan support needed to pass it in Congress. Add to this that the backlash would move Congress in the midterm elections to the antivax side in many states and would seriously derail a second Biden (or hwoever the dems run in his place) presidential run.

However, I do think we could go a long way to "encouraging" vaccination by making it mandatory to fly or use other methods of pubic transport and access other non essential services. However, I doubt any more stringent action would owrk.

I remember public vaccinations against polio back in the late 1950s — early 1960s, standing in line at one of the local public schools to get a sugar cube which had been treated with the liquid vaccine... but I don't remember if it was absolutely mandatory (I was what – maybe five at the time?  I just thought it was kinda cool to be given a sugar cube as 'medicine'!), or if my parents were just being good parents and citizens by doing the right thing in order to protect themselves, their family, and others.

-"BB"-

[Guinevere]

Sue and Guin, a question re mandatory vaccination--have we ever had it in the US (not mandatory vaccinations for school, but mandatory vaccination of everyone)? I don't recall every having heard of any and I seriously question whether it can work (unless we have vaccine storm troopers checking your card whenever you are in public) and jailing people until they are vaccinated, but I am more concerned that a mandatory order would galvanize resistance and have some otherwise intelligent people who support individual rights join with the yahoos. This would especially be the case if it was a federal mandate per executive order, as I seriously question whether we could get the bipartisan support needed to pass it in Congress. Add to this that the backlash would move Congress in the midterm elections to the antivax side in many states and would seriously derail a second Biden (or hwoever the dems run in his place) presidential run.

However, I do think we could go a long way to "encouraging" vaccination by making it mandatory to fly or use other methods of pubic transport and access other non essential services. However, I doubt any more stringent action would owrk.

A vaccination mandate is probably not within the power of the federal government, but it is certainly within the province of a state's police powers regarding public health. The seminal case is Jacobson v. Massachusetts (1905), which upheld the Commonwealth's statute authorizing mandatory vaccination for all residents in response to a smallpox outbreak.

Apart from smallpox, vaccines are pretty much a mid-20th century invention, so there hasn't been a lot of history in which to apply mandates. But since there actually have been state-imposed mandatory vaccinations for schoolchildren since the 1960s, we have now reached the stage that almost all of the population has received a mandatory vaccination of some sort at some point. And as a result, smallpox has been virtually eliminated, measles/mumps/rubella/diphtheria/pertussis are rare, and even "harmless" chicken pox is no longer a common childhood illness.

But vaccination during a pandemic like COVID is not only about personal choice; this is a public health emergency where the unvaccinated pose a significant and ongoing risk to the rest of society by serving as breeding hosts for mutating strains of the virus which, if left unchecked, will eventually become vaccine resistant. The number of dead/seriously sickened, the strain on public health resources and the devastation of the economy resulting from an unabated pandemic justify mandatory vaccination. If the feds can't do it, I am all for imposing it on a state-by-state basis; let's compare the results we'd get here in NJ/NY/NE (presumably jurisdictions amenable to a mandate) with those in FL and TX.

ETA:

And I'd also be in favor of requiring proof of vaccination to use any public transit service and for air travel (feds could mandate for any interstate travel modes), non-essential services and probably for receiving certain types of public benefits (student financial aid, unemployment benefits and loan guarantees, off the top of my head).

See Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 297 US 11 (1905) (the Commonwealth's compulsory vaccination law did not violate the 14th Amendment); Compagnie Francoise De Navigation a Vapeur v. BD. of Health of State of La., 186 US 380 (1902) (Louisiana law requiring involuntary quarantine during a yellow fever outbreak was a reasonable exercise of state police power).

Both cases cited in a recent decision out of Texas (US District Court) captioned Bridges v. Houston Methodist Hospital: https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/ ... /full.pdf

Finally, see the following guidance from the EEOC: https://www.eeoc.gov/wysk/what-you-shou ... r-eeo-laws

Likely subject to bargaining for union employees.