Will Obama be a failure if:

[Scooter]

Are you expecting everyone to fall over themselves agreeing with the characterizations of them which you have invented out of the words you are attempting to put into their mouths?

[Big RR]

What bothers me is that you all appear to be willing to support Obama no matter what he doses as long as it falls on the left side of the political spectrum. If Obama decided to interned, not that he could do it at this point in our history*, the right wing talk radio establishment, I feel that you all would support him. As you all see it that would be ok as long as it were conservatives being locked up. There are people here that where willing to damage the Constitution in order to impeach bush for something that was not a crime when the liberal, democrat controlled senate of the 1990s was not willing to try Clinton for actual crimes. That is the kind of attitude the produces men like Hitler and Stalin.

*Internment can be justified if the survival of the nation depends on it.

I wouldn't Liberty, it would IMHO be illegal regardless of who is imprisoned. We are either a country of laws or not.

And FWIW, the senate did try Clinton and did not vote to impeach him; didn't you watch TV then? And if Clinton's lying about an inconsequential thing (which resulted in no deaths) was a crime (and I think it was), lying to put us into a unjustified war (which resulted in thousands of deaths, as W did, was an even greater crime, even if you are too blinded by politics to admit it.

As for your assertion "Internment can be justified if the survival of the nation depends on it", that's exactly the kind of attitude that puts men like Stalin and Hitler in power and keeps them there.

[Scooter]

That last bit was liberty's lame attempt to put a belief into the mouth of those he considers "leftists".

[liberty]

As for your assertion "Internment can be justified if the survival of the nation depends on it", that's exactly the kind of attitude that puts men like Stalin and Hitler in power and keeps them there.

“The Constitution is not a suicide pact” Abraham Lincoln


It is up to the people to determine when the emergency is over in order to prevent their freedom slipping away. To do that, the people have to keep power instead of surrendering it to an all powerful central government.

[Scooter]

the precise phrase "suicide pact" was first used by Justice Robert H. Jackson in his dissenting opinion in Terminiello v. Chicago, a 1949 free speech case decided by the U.S. Supreme Court.

The Constitution is not a suicide pact.

That summa cum laude associate's degree from the University of East Butt Crack is sure showing its value.

[Big RR]

As for your assertion "Internment can be justified if the survival of the nation depends on it", that's exactly the kind of attitude that puts men like Stalin and Hitler in power and keeps them there.

“The Constitution is not a suicide pact” Abraham Lincoln


It is up to the people to determine when the emergency is over in order to prevent their freedom slipping away. To do that, the people have to keep power instead of surrendering it to an all powerful central government.

who, but an all powerful central government (staffed by ruthless and narcissistic leaders) would enforce those internments?

[rubato]

What bothers me is that you all appear to be willing to support Obama no matter what he doses as long as it falls on the left side of the political spectrum. If Obama decided to interned, not that he could do it at this point in our history*, the right wing talk radio establishment, I feel that you all would support him. As you all see it that would be ok as long as it were conservatives being locked up. There are people here that where willing to damage the Constitution in order to impeach bush for something that was not a crime when the liberal, democrat controlled senate of the 1990s was not willing to try Clinton for actual crimes. That is the kind of attitude the produces men like Hitler and Stalin.

*Internment can be justified if the survival of the nation depends on it.

What bothers me is that you cannot respond intelligently to any of the the facts presented to you.

edited

yrs,
rubato

[liberty]

who, but an all powerful central government (staffed by ruthless and narcissistic leaders) would enforce those internments?

It is not necessary for a government to be all powerful in order for it to carry our it duty even though it may have exceptional power during an emergency.
But even then there are something’s that are off limits to the federal government so it is not and should never be all powerful. Some things are not federal issues.

To categorically say that interments are never acceptable is foolish, because that would require the ability to foresee the future. Other than scooter is there anyone here that believe that they have that ability?

[Big RR]

Please, once a right is given over to the powers that be, it is rarely, if ever, gotten back by the people. You may feel comfortable to allow the central government to jail persons deemed a "danger" without charge, but I fear that far more than any scenario I can dream some enemies may visit upon us. Hitler and Stalin made the same argument for their purges/arrests/deportations/imprisonments, and look how well those worked out.

[Econoline]

Godwin's Rule: end of thread

[Lord Jim]

once a right is given over to the powers that be, it is rarely, if ever, gotten back by the people.

I guess that explains why all the Japanese are still living in internment camps...

Oh wait....

That's simply completely historically inaccurate Big RR. Our history, and the history of many other modern democracies, (and ancient ones for that matter) are replete with numerous examples where government powers were expanded during times of national emergency and later scaled back.

The use of national emergency to justify the expansion of government power vis a vis individual rights has been used as a justification by bad leaders, good leaders, and mediocre leaders. The validity in each case must be judged on the individual merits; the notion that this is always and everywhere sinister, wrong, and irreversible is simply not supported by the facts of the historical record.

[Timster]

Fuck all rubato is a Nazi.

Dare me.../

[Big RR]

once a right is given over to the powers that be, it is rarely, if ever, gotten back by the people.

I guess that explains why all the Japanese are still living in internment camps...

Oh wait....

That's simply completely historically inaccurate Big RR. Our history, and the history of many other modern democracies, (and ancient ones for that matter) are replete with numerous examples where government powers were expanded during times of national emergency and later scaled back.

The use of national emergency to justify the expansion of government power vis a vis individual rights has been used as a justification by bad leaders, good leaders, and mediocre leaders. The validity in each case must be judged on the individual merits; the notion that this is always and everywhere sinister, wrong, and irreversible is simply not supported by the facts of the historical record.

Spare me Jim, I did say rarely gotten back, not ever. Sometimes the people get some back when the leader/dictator leaves office/is deposed/dies, but I can't think of any times where the leader just changes his/her mind and says the "emergency" is over (and I think history nears me out on this--look at FDR and Lincoln, e.g.). If you're willing to rely on that to protect your rights, be my guest; I won't.

[Gob]

Somethings working!

US unemployment rate falls to new two-year low of 8.8% The US unemployment rate fell to a new two-year low in March of 8.8%, from 8.9% in February.

It was the fourth monthly fall in a row. The unemployment rate has fallen by a percentage point during the last four months.

Employers created 216,000 jobs in March, the US Department of Labor said, higher than market expectations.

Other economic data showed a slight dip in manufacturing in March, although the report was seen as broadly positive.

The Institute for Supply Management's (ISM) index of national factory activity dipped to 61.2 last month from 61.4 in February.

February's rate was the highest since May 2004. Any reading above 50 indicates growth.

US and European stock markets were boosted by the economic news. London, Paris and Frankfurt all closed with gains of more than 1.5%, while the Dow was up 1% by late afternoon.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12935003

[quaddriver]

But keep this in mind: in the USA, if your bennies expire, you are considered 'no longer looking for work' and you fall off the count.

Happened in the early 80's, happening now.

(although I will note, of the frightenly large number of people I know personally who were out of work, some have gotten jobs before the checks disappeared at about 50 cents on the dollar to what they used to make. If that is to be counted as progress....)

[rubato]

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/suppl/EMPSIT.CPSEED1.TXT

Wellll not quite so good.

The employment/population ratio is well down 58.4%, current from 62.8% in 2008.

yrs,
rubato

[Mr. Duality]

Obama is already a "failure" as a president, since my own political priorities have not been advanced by his administration. However, that doesn't mean I'd want the Republicans anywhere near the levers of power.

What the Republicans do that troubles you so much?

Let's see, domestically, they squandered a budget surplus; looted the treasury to transfer national wealth to corporate interests; dismantled pollution controls and environmental regulation; gutted food and drug safety review, inspection and enforcement; promoted economic policies that dramatically widened the income gap between rich and poor; and enacted tax policy to ensure the rich paid less. Their announced future policy goals include turning Social Security over to Wall Street speculators; making the tax code even more regressive; and (near and dear to me) substantially limiting citizens' rights to redress in the courts. The Supreme Court we currently have is dominated by the most radical far-right ideologues since the Hughes Court 75 years ago; if there is another vacancy under a GOP administration there is no doubt that the tilt will become even more extreme.

In foreign affairs, the Republicans dragged us into two overseas wars -- one of which was entirely unnecessary, the other entirely mismanaged -- with no adequately defined objectives and no credible plan to bring them to conclusion; they have championed a bullying unilateralism in international relations, which soured even our closest allies; they antagonized and provoked unfriendly regimes, pushing them into ever more hardened anti-American positions; they seriously undermined the rule of law by attempting to legitimize torture, indefinitely imprisoning foreign citizens in Guantanamo and "black site" prisons overseas, and engaging in "extraordinary rendition" to allow frank torture; they withdrew from any meaningful participation in important international peace negotiations, including in the Middle East; and they blew off opportunities to collaborate positively with other nations on a raft of global issues, including climate change.

These are just a few of the reasons that I don't want the GOP in power again. They will deliver only more of the same.

I'll be stealing this, if you don't mind.

[AndyH]

She links another article whining about “no-bid” contracts to companies with “Republican ties” in the wake of Katrina, and waiver of Davis Bacon requirements for some subsequent procurements. How Ironic.
<snip>

And what can one say about Davis Bacon, except that it has been one of the biggest give-aways to union labor of the past 70 years, resulting in waste of hundreds of billions of dollars and categorically eliminating the most efficient contractors who might otherwise have bid successfully on Federally-funded construction work? A purely Democrat initiative...

James "Iron Puddler" Davis (R-PA), Labor Secretary under Harding, Coolidge, & Hoover, and "Big Bob" Bacon, (R - NY) might disagree with this. They were the co sponsors of the act, passed in 1931 by an overwhelmingly Republican congress and signed by that noted pinko, Hoobert Heever...

As a certified DB compliance reviewer, I find that DB still allows many small contractors to bid successfully on larger jobs and allows them to give decent wage-rated work to their best employees. We inevitably get more productivity from DB jobs. At a premium that averages about 10 to 15% the time saved by a crew made up of the best workers may even make that up. In 35 years, with more than $50 million in DB covered construction, I have used precisely one union shop GC. Unlike many state prevailing wage laws (a subject for another day, on which I have conflicted feelings) DB rewards good workers with good wages, but does not favor union shops over non union or drive tge "little guys" out of bidding.

[rubato]

A voice of sanity and reason emerges!

Welcome back AndyH.

yrs,
rubato