Beating up women for fun

[Gob]

When and if other cisgender women MMA fighters have occasion to fight against a trans woman, they can speak and decide for themselves whether or not to do it. They are not indentured servants, after all.

So when you said her views should "settle it", you meant settle it for her, not settle the issue in question.

[Scooter]

Scooter I guess you are saying that I cannot be a true trans ally unless I agree with you on this subject?

I made absolutely no comment on anything that anyone has said here. I was referring to quotes in the article calling McLaughlin a "man", saying that she "cheated", etc.

[Gob]

Well for all but 5 of her 38 years she was a man.

[Scooter]

She might tell you that she never considered herself a man, despite her outward appearance. That is the experience of most transgender people.

[Big RR]

ersonally, I think if a trans woman chooses to compete against a male competitor (like here),

Just to clarify, the OP we are discussing is about a trans woman (biological man transitioned to woman) competing against a biological woman - no male competitors involved.

I understand that, I was just writing more broadly to cover all alternatives. Again, I don't think this sort of competition is fair, or, for that matter, particularly interesting, but I am willing to leave it up to the sport governing body and the individuals (although, as I said, if someone does not participate in matches, (s)he may be disqualified).

As for

She might tell you that she never considered herself a man, despite her outward appearance.

, perhaps, but then when she went into the army and assumed a combat position women were generally barred from she identified as a man (or at least claimed to be one).

[Gob]

She might tell you that she never considered herself a man, despite her outward appearance. That is the experience of most transgender people.

(s)He contrived to be a big man, and joined US Army Special Forces as a soldier, so (s)he must have considered herself a man then?

[Scooter]

I don't know, and it doesn't matter. Calling her a "man" now is wrong, and such intentional misgendering is intended to be abusive.

[BoSoxGal]

She might tell you that she never considered herself a man, despite her outward appearance. That is the experience of most transgender people.

(s)He contrived to be a big man, and joined US Army Special Forces as a soldier, so (s)he must have considered herself a man then?

You might want to check out the Netflix documentary Untold: Caitlyn Jenner for understanding of how some trans women cope with ambivalence about their identity by hyper masculinization. That doesn’t mean they feel strongly identified with the male gender. The psychology can be very complex. I’m sure with your professional background you get that.

[rubato]

Saying you can "become" a man or a woman merely by "considering yourself" as such is as idiotic as saying you can become the "tallest" person in the room by considering yourself so.

It promotes fantasy and delusion over reality.

Now if someone wishes to be treated as if they were of the opposite gender I would, out of politeness, do so. But I could not swear that it was not condescension to do so unless they were sufficiently convincing in the role that they got away with it.

There is a local tradition, starting with one-eyed Charley Parkhurst, of this.

https://www.cdcr.ca.gov/insidecdcr/2019 ... ng-trails/

yrs,
rubato

[rubato]

Scooter I guess you are saying that I cannot be a true trans ally unless I agree with you on this subject?

I made absolutely no comment on anything that anyone has said here. I was referring to quotes in the article calling McLaughlin a "man", saying that she "cheated", etc.

If he didn't have his dick and balls cut off I would say he lacked seriousness and comittment to the role. And I don't think namby-pambyism should be rewarded.

yrs,
rubato

[Gob]

Oh god, I agree with rubato again. I feel ill.

[Bicycle Bill]

Saying you can "become" a man or a woman merely by "considering yourself" as such is as idiotic as saying you can become the "tallest" person in the room by considering yourself so.

If he didn't have his dick and balls cut off I would say he lacked seriousness and comittment to the role. And I don't think namby-pambyism should be rewarded.

-"BB"-

[BoSoxGal]

Is top and bottom surgery a requirement for participation in sport, or just testosterone suppression?

[Econoline]

Wouldn't that be up to the governing body for the particular sport?

FWIW, I think that up until middle school at least, probably high school, there should be no ban on non-gender-conforming individuals in sports (though locker rooms and group showers pose a thorny privacy issue that post-pubescent adolescents probably shouldn't have imposed on them from above by ideology-driven adults). College sports pose more problems, due to the high-stakes, semi-professional aspects of sports at that level.

The governing bodies and players' unions of professional sports should absolutely have the right and the authority to make whatever rules they feel serve the best interest of the sport as a whole. If in some cases this leads to a complete ban (or a conditional ban, or a case-by-case ban) on trans athletes, so be it. Not everyone is entitled to a career as a professional athlete. Transgender people, especially trans women, may just have to accept that (like a short person who wants to play basketball) they aren't physically qualified for a paying professional career, and just enjoy their chosen sport as a form of personal recreation.

[BoSoxGal]

My problem with including high school is that many kids earn college scholarships by virtue of their high school athletics performance. When you are poor or lower middle class, those are pretty high stakes.

[Gob]

[Econoline]

Right, Gob.

Transgender people, especially trans women, may just have to accept that (like a short person who wants to play basketball) they aren't physically qualified for a paying professional career having babies, and just enjoy their chosen sport sex as a form of personal recreation.

[Gob]

Yeah, but what have the Romans ever done for us eh?

[Big RR]

My problem with including high school is that many kids earn college scholarships by virtue of their high school athletics performance. When you are poor or lower middle class, those are pretty high stakes.

But if you are ineligibie to play in college, your high school performance is immaterial, you will not get an athletic scholarship.

[BoSoxGal]

And what about the biological girls who would have come in first or second in competitions but instead come in 3rd or out of the ribbons/medals altogether because they are competing against trans girls?