White Guilt

[liberty]

Should white people feel guilty for what their ancestors may or may not have done or even their parents or siblings? No, in western culture, as expressed in the US constitution and the old testament of the Bible, one is only responsible for their action, not for what anyone else does or did. White children should be taught not to feel guilt for the past. Teach them to be proud of their ancestor's achievements and to learn from their failures. And don't let anyone make you feel guilty. Anyone trying to make you feel guilty is trying to make you an emotional slave. Don't let anyone make you a slave.

There are blacks and some liberals who try to make white people feel guilty to manipulate them, but it doesn't work with me. Anyone who tries to control me most likely gets results just opposite of what they want. People trying to manipulate you are trying to make you an emotional slave to do their will. White kids asking their parents about white guilt is enough to know; that some people are trying to manipulate white kids into being submissive. If a black boy says to a white girl," if you don't date me, you're a racist," she should respond with, "you are no friend of mine; get away from me." Then she should stay away from him, don't be anyone's slave.

[Burning Petard]

"Should white people feel guilty for what their ancestors may or may not have done or even their parents or siblings?"

Thank you Liberty, for posting your answer to this question. Do you have any consistent grounding that produces this answer? It seems to me your answer
supports the idea that one should also have no pride or feelings of success by what ancestors, parents or siblings have done.

snailgate

[Sue U]

Should white people feel guilty for what their ancestors may or may not have done or even their parents or siblings? No, in western culture, as expressed in the US constitution

"Western culture" is not "expressed in the US constitution." Do you even know what the constitution is?

To the extent there is a "Bill of Rights" that was appended to the constitution, most of those enumerated rights were antithetical to what had been "Western culture" (at least as "expressed" in governmental function) up to that point. A free press? Free exercise of religion and a ban on establishment? Freedom of assembly and petition? And that's just the First Amendment. The "right" guaranteed by the Second is (still!) found nowhere in "Western culture" except the USA. I could go on through all ten, but your assertion is preposterous.

and the old testament of the Bible, one is only responsible for their action, not for what anyone else does or did.

As with the constitution, in your ignorance you simply imagine things you wish were in the "Old Testament," when the text says the opposite:

Exodus 20:5: I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me

Exodus 34:7: He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations

Numbers 14:18: He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.

Deuteronomy 5:9: I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me

And I haven't even gotten to Nevi'im ("the Prophets") yet.

White children should be taught not to feel guilt for the past. Teach them to be proud of their ancestor's achievements and to learn from their failures. And don't let anyone make you feel guilty. Anyone trying to make you feel guilty is trying to make you an emotional slave. Don't let anyone make you a slave.
[blah blah blah blah &c.}

As I said above: "White guilt" (and for that matter "complicity") is a bullshit premise that allows white people -- and particularly the white racists who are constantly flogging it -- to ignore the actual racism that persists in American society, law, and public policy.

QED. I rest my case.

It seems to me your answer supports the idea that one should also have no pride or feelings of success by what ancestors, parents or siblings have done.

Solid point.

[liberty]

Should white people feel guilty for what their ancestors may or may not have done or even their parents or siblings? No, in western culture, as expressed in the US constitution

"Western culture" is not "expressed in the US constitution." Do you even know what the constitution is?

To the extent there is a "Bill of Rights" that was appended to the constitution, most of those enumerated rights were antithetical to what had been "Western culture" (at least as "expressed" in governmental function) up to that point. A free press? Free exercise of religion and a ban on establishment? Freedom of assembly and petition? And that's just the First Amendment. The "right" guaranteed by the Second is (still!) found nowhere in "Western culture" except the USA. I could go on through all ten, but your assertion is preposterous.

and the old testament of the Bible, one is only responsible for their action, not for what anyone else does or did.

As with the constitution, in your ignorance you simply imagine things you wish were in the "Old Testament," when the text says the opposite:

Exodus 20:5: I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me

Exodus 34:7: He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations

Numbers 14:18: He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.

Deuteronomy 5:9: I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me

And I haven't even gotten to Nevi'im ("the Prophets") yet.

White children should be taught not to feel guilt for the past. Teach them to be proud of their ancestor's achievements and to learn from their failures. And don't let anyone make you feel guilty. Anyone trying to make you feel guilty is trying to make you an emotional slave. Don't let anyone make you a slave.
[blah blah blah blah &c.}

As I said above: "White guilt" (and for that matter "complicity") is a bullshit premise that allows white people -- and particularly the white racists who are constantly flogging it -- to ignore the actual racism that persists in American society, law, and public policy.

QED. I rest my case.

It seems to me your answer supports the idea that one should also have no pride or feelings of success by what ancestors, parents or siblings have done.

Solid point.

Are you saying that whites are guilty of the crimes committed by their ancestors?

[Sue U]

Are you saying that whites are guilty of the crimes committed by their ancestors?

[liberty]

Are you saying that whites are guilty of the crimes committed by their ancestors?

That is no answer. That translates to "How dare you to ask the question!" Come on now, show some courage answer the question: Do you believe that whites are guilty of the crimes committed by their ancestors?

[Bicycle Bill]

God help us all, but this time I do agree with liberty.   I do not feel one scintilla of personal shame or responsibility for anything that was done to someone else's great-great-grandparents prior to the Civil War, or because after the war, some assholes in white sheets and hoods implemented laws and fomented disorder to keep black people down.   I had abso-fuckin'-lutely nothing to do with any of that, and forcing someone to admit that they did is no better than forcing someone to sign a trumped-up, doctored "confession" before sending them to the guillotine or standing them up in front of a firing squad.

So there's no way in hell that I'm gonna get in line for the 'Loathe Boat' to beat my breast and cry crocodile tears just to placate someone who's so fuckin' dumb that they think their problems are the result of my having been born a white male.   The SS Atonement will have to sail without me, because that's one guilt trip that I'll be damned if I get on board for.

-"BB"-

[Sue U]

Why don't you all try reading for comprehension? Here, I'll make it easy:

"White guilt" (and for that matter "complicity") is a bullshit premise that allows white people -- and particularly the white racists who are constantly flogging it -- to ignore the actual racism that persists in American society, law, and public policy. "Why should I have to feel guilty about slavery? I didn't own slaves. My people didn't even come to America until after the Civil War." When this distraction is the focus of the conversation, it is easier to reject serious consideration of the ongoing systemic racism that is the legacy of slavery, from segregation and Jim Crow through red-lining and housing discrimination, familial wealth accrual disparity, employment discrimination, educational disadvantage, racial profiling, over-policing, mass incarceration, political disenfranchisement and a host of other social ills. White supremacy is so baked into American society that whiteness is the baseline normative descriptor, whether or not with malevolent intention or even with any consciousness whatsoever.

The bullshit manufactured hysteria about "teaching white guilt" has derailed the general public's understanding of what critical race theory (and critical legal studies as a whole) actually is: an approach to analyzing the disparate impacts and outcomes that are obvious but whose causes may not be, because they are obscured by the bias inherent in the law, program or social structures on which they are based. Nattering about "white guilt" is how you avoid talking about the violence inherent in the system.

Get it?

[Econoline]

Should white people feel guilty for what their ancestors may or may not have done or even their parents or siblings? No, in western culture, as expressed in the US constitution and the old testament of the Bible, one is only responsible for their action, not for what anyone else does or did.

“You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me” (Exodus 20:5).

“The Lord is long-suffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons to the third and fourth generation” (Numbers 14:18).

“You shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them. For I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons to the third and fourth generation of those who hate Me, and doing mercy to thousands of those who love Me and keep My commandments” (Deuteronomy 5:9-10)

“Ah, Sovereign Lord, you have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and outstretched arm. Nothing is too hard for you. You show love to thousands but bring the punishment for the parents’ sins into the laps of their children after them. Great and mighty God, whose name is the Lord Almighty” (Jeremiah 32:17-18).

“Our fathers sinned, and are no more; It is we who have borne their iniquities” (Lamentations 5:7).

“Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation” (Exodus 34:7).

“Behold, it is written before me: ‘I will not keep silent, but I will repay; I will indeed repay into their bosom both your iniquities and your fathers' iniquities together, says the Lord; because they made offerings on the mountains and insulted me on the hills, I will measure into their bosom payment for their former deeds.’” (Isaiah 65:6-7)

[Gob]

Exodus 20:5: I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me

Exodus 34:7: He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations

Numbers 14:18: He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.

Deuteronomy 5:9: I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me

What a nasty little sod this god geezer is.

[BoSoxGal]

What a nasty little sod this god geezer is.

Well he is crafted in the image of mankind, so . . .

[Gob]

Good point.

[Econoline]

What a nasty little sod this god geezer is.

Well he is crafted in the image of mankind, so . . .

[liberty]

First:

[ ...] about as likely as Schoenberg’s ever being brunch music for more than a rarefied few.

Schoenberg's what???? There are few pieces in the modern repertoire more sumptuous, more beautiful and more captivating to the ear (and more popular!) than Verklarte Nacht (Transfigured Night). Even if you don't know the underlying story, it's a breathtaking and deeply emotional musical journey. Take some time and listen to this; I promise you will be a better person.

Now, back to the actual topic.

"White guilt" (and for that matter "complicity") is a bullshit premise that allows white people -- and particularly the white racists who are constantly flogging it -- to ignore the actual racism that persists in American society, law, and public policy. "Why should I have to feel guilty about slavery? I didn't own slaves. My people didn't even come to America until after the Civil War." When this distraction is the focus of the conversation, it is easier to reject serious consideration of the ongoing systemic racism that is the legacy of slavery, from segregation and Jim Crow through red-lining and housing discrimination, familial wealth accrual disparity, employment discrimination, educational disadvantage, racial profiling, over-policing, mass incarceration, political disenfranchisement and a host of other social ills. White supremacy is so baked into American society that whiteness is the baseline normative descriptor, whether or not with malevolent intention or even with any consciousness whatsoever.

The bullshit manufactured hysteria about "teaching white guilt" has derailed the general public's understanding of what critical race theory (and critical legal studies as a whole) actually is: an approach to analyzing the disparate impacts and outcomes that are obvious but whose causes may not be, because they are obscured by the bias inherent in the law, program or social structures on which they are based. Nattering about "white guilt" is how you avoid talking about the violence inherent in the system.

never mind

[Scooter]

I don't care what any of you actually have to say, I'm going to put my own nonsensical words in your mouth in order to support whatever moronic whine fest of the week that I am otherwise completely incapable of arguing.

[liberty]

Now let's talk about racism and redlining, to be specific. I don't think bankers are racist; I believe they are capitalist. They're not interested in skin color; it is the color of money that excites them. Why should they care where their profits come from as long as it is a significant profit. If a bank loses money loaning in a specific neighborhood, should they continue to lend money in that neighborhood?

I have a friend who was in real estate. He was an idealist kind of a guy who wanted to make the world a better place. He saw that our local public housing facilities are hundred percent black. He tried to put people in their own houses. He said if a person is buying a home, they're storing money in something with value, but if you're renting a house, you have nothing; you're creating wealth for another person.

He specifically targeted the black community with something called rural development loans. Individuals can start paying for their own house with little more than rent money. The loan can be arranged in such a way that all expenses are paid out of the loan. He finally had to give up on the idea up. There's only one major stipulation in rural development loans the borrower must have excellent credit, and he couldn't find anyone with good credit. The best way to help black people to build up wealth would be to take away their credit cards. These individuals had bad credit because they couldn't or wouldn't control their spending. Who is responsible for the individuals' impulse buying? Is it the person, or is it the bank?

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[Scooter]

No one gave me the answers I was so desperate to put into their mouths on the "white guilt" bullshit, so I'm going to change the subject.

[rubato]

You would like to think that and I would like to think that. But statistically implausible. You would have made some excuse and saved your skin. All else is self-serving fantasy.

yrs,
rubato