I love the dead...

[MajGenl.Meade]

And Gob's reply falls down on missing the point.

Scooter did not make a statement about live women. His statement is entirely about the live pervert (male) and his "ideally desirable" woman, i.e. a powerless, voiceless, non-person, i.e. dead. He doesn't want to deal with the benefits and difficulties of a relationship with a live woman - hence necrophilia (Big RR pls note)

[Big RR]

Meade--Sccooter said, in part

I'm saying that a man who fucks a corpse is making a statement about what he wishes living, breathing women were like

, which suggests (at the very least) that the necrophile would want to have relations with a living, breathing woman who is similarly docile. I do not agree; the necrophile is turned on by a dead body in the same way the the pedophile is turned on by a young child. They have no real interest in living women. Now there are necrophiles who prefer play acting where they have sex with a living woman (or man) who pretends to be dead, which is kind of like what Scooter is suggesting, but this is a small minority of necrophiles.

[BoSoxGal]

Meade--Sccooter said, in part

I'm saying that a man who fucks a corpse is making a statement about what he wishes living, breathing women were like

, which suggests (at the very least) that the necrophile would want to have relations with a living, breathing woman who is similarly docile. I do not agree; the necrophile is turned on by a dead body in the same way the the pedophile is turned on by a young child. They have no real interest in living women. Now there are necrophiles who prefer play acting where they have sex with a living woman (or man) who pretends to be dead, which is kind of like what Scooter is suggesting, but this is a small minority of necrophiles.

Didn’t realize you were an expert on necrophiliacs.

Just like pedophiles, there are plenty who are engaged in long term committed intimate relationships with living adult women (almost all necrophiliacs are men, can’t imagine why?) while harboring and sometimes acting on necrophiliac urges - just like the man in the OP that started this conversation.

And there is some overlap between serial killers and necrophilia - at least a dozen major American serial killers were compelled to make a fresh corpse to fuck rather than digging one up or getting a job with access to a morgue.

[BoSoxGal]

Also for the record, the Sexual Offences Act of 2003 makes it a crime to rape a corpse in the UK. Little bit more evolved over there, as in many other cases concerning the criminal justice system.

[BoSoxGal]

This guy was married three times and had two kids. I can only imagine how destroyed they feel about all this.

Bedsit Killer's children are 'in total shock' ex-wife says

By Chris Jewers For Mailonline 09:28 EDT 06 Nov 2021 , updated 10:28 EDT 06 Nov 2021
1hr ago

The children of bedsit killer David Fuller are 'in total shock' and insist they 'didn't know' the man who killed two women and raped more than 100 corpses, his ex-wife has said.

This week, Fuller finally admitted the murder of Wendy Knell and Caroline Pierce in Tunbridge Wells, Kent, in 1987 after the mystified police for three decades.

The killings were known as the ‘Bedsit Murders’, and were solved after a DNA breakthrough cracked one of Britain’s longest unsolved murder cases.

However, as detectives investigated the 67-year-old, they soon found this seemingly harmless oddball was in fact hiding a double-life and had been abusing corpses.

Now, his family are starting to speak out after learning of his heinous crimes, with his ex-wife telling that his children are in 'total shock'.

Gill Palmer, 65, who was reportedly visibly shaken when speaking to the newspaper, said: 'It's too horrific. I can't even take it in myself yet.

'It's not right on so many levels. It's just not right. My children can't talk about it. They're not in a good frame of mind,' she said.

The children of bedsit killer David Fuller have said they are 'in total shock' and insist they 'didn't know' the man who killed two women and raped more than 100 corpses.
The children of bedsit killer David Fuller have said they are 'in total shock' and insist they 'didn't know' the man who killed two women and raped more than 100 corpses.
Fuller's ex-wife Gill Palmer, 65, (pictured) , said that the children she shared with him in shock after learning of their father's true nature
Fuller's ex-wife Gill Palmer, 65, (pictured) , said that the children she shared with him in shock after learning of their father's true nature
'What came out has been a total shock. It's their father you're talking about. They didn't know the man. I didn't know the man.'

Palmer married Fuller in 1972 in Portsmouth and the pair had a son and a daughter. The marriage ended in divorce and while Fuller remained in the south, marrying twice more, Gill moved north.

Gemma Keena, 39, Gill's daughter from a later relationship had little dealing with the father of her half brother and sister, but earlier told Mailonline of the devastating effect his crimes had taken on her mother and siblings.

'They are in such shock, the details are unbearable. I'd say they are numb,' she said.

'He isn't my father, I came along later. It's still an awful shock but it's really dreadful for my brother, sister and my mum. What can they do or say when they've heard what he did?

'He went to my sister's wedding and I remember him from that but he went straight back down afterwards, he didn't stay.'

Explaining the effect of Fuller's crimes being revealed on the rest of the family, she continued: 'Really it wasn't a close relationship between him and this part of the family for a lot of years. But they are still having to think about all this information that's suddenly hit them.

'My mum and sister and brother are trying to process what he did and that is so hard for them. It's so awful you don't even want to say it.

'They were made aware that he had been accused of the murder of those two young women and that alone was hard enough to deal with.

'But they knew absolutely nothing about those other offences and I think someone could surely have prepared them. It was only when they went down to a pre trial hearing that they learnt about what he'd done in the hospitals.

'What a way to learn something like that. They have been in shock ever since. They also didn't know the trial was coming to an end and all this would suddenly hit the media.- we were on the school run when the news came out.

'Since then all three have shut themselves away. They don't want to see anyone or talk to anyone until they've had chance to process it.

'Sharon has been so upset and in tears. You are bound to look back over the years and wonder if there were ever any signs he was capable of such things.'

Ms Palmer's comments come after Mala Fuller, 50, his third wife, that she ended their marriage after learning his true nature.

Undated handout photo issued by Kent Police of Wendy Knell
Undated handout photo issued by Kent Police of Wendy Knell
Caroline Pierce, murder victim. 20-year-old Caroline was killed and sexually assaulted before killer David Fuller dumped her body in a field
Caroline Pierce, murder victim. 20-year-old Caroline was killed and sexually assaulted before killer David Fuller dumped her body in a field
'I'm not with him, she said. 'I couldn't carry on in that relationship. I'm too upset to even think about what was going on, I couldn't live with it. You can't imagine how distraught I am.'

Mala, who originates from Trinidad moved out of the home she shared with Fuller in Heathfield, East Sussex for the past 20 years four months ago.

She sobbed: 'I could not stay in that house knowing what he did and what went on in there. I wanted to be alone and want to live my life alone.'

Neighbours revealed that Mala had told them her marriage to Fuller was over just weeks after his arrest last December. One said: 'She made it clear that she wasn't going to continue with him but how could any sane person?

'Mala's sister has been helping her through this very difficult time. She had to stay in the house until she found alternative accommodation but as soon as she could, she got out and I don't blame her. Nobody can stay married to a monster like that.'

Yesterday, Kent Police said they will never know how many women and girls Fuller violated – but admit it could be hundreds more, and released contact centre details in anticipation of an avalanche of calls from family members.

Ministers and relatives of those Fuller abused have demanded to know how the electrician was allowed to continue his sickening offences over decades of working for the .

But officers say they may reach a stage when they cannot identify all of his victims – one of whom was Azra Kemal, 24, who was abused by Fuller at Tunbridge Wells Hospital after she died following a fall from a bridge in July 2020.

Azra Kemal, 24 (pictured), was abused by Fuller at Tunbridge Wells Hospital after she died following a fall from a bridge in July 2020
Azra Kemal, 24 (pictured), was abused by Fuller at Tunbridge Wells Hospital after she died following a fall from a bridge in July 2020
Her mother Nevres Kemal has raised fears over how many bodies Fuller may have abused, telling Sky News in an emotional interview: 'He had entered the morgue and autopsy area thousands of times, not hundreds, thousands.'

When police searched Fuller's house they discovered hidden computer hard drives, CDs, and floppy discs with 14 million images of sex offences, included footage of Fuller sexually assaulting dead bodies in two morgues.

Detectives uncovered hard drives attached to the rear of a chest of drawers along with diaries in which he had handwritten details of his victims in hospital. His oldest victim was 100 and his youngest was aged just nine.

Speaking to the Daily Mail, Ms Kemal said she was consumed by a frightening rage when she was told by officers about her daughter's body being abused.

‘The rage... .’ she said. ‘My only thought was, “He is not going to get away this.” I’d just been told he’d raped her in hospital when she was dead. It was incomprehensible. I felt I had to take things into my own hands — find him, punish him. I’m her mother.

Azra Kemal's mother Nevres Kemal has raised fears over how many bodies Fuller may have abused, telling Sky News in an emotional interview: 'He had entered the morgue and autopsy area thousands of times, not hundreds, thousands.
Azra Kemal's mother Nevres Kemal has raised fears over how many bodies Fuller may have abused, telling Sky News in an emotional interview: 'He had entered the morgue and autopsy area thousands of times, not hundreds, thousands.
‘If I’d found him, I’m 99.99 per cent sure I’d have put that knife straight through his heart because he’d put a knife through mine. The thought of him violating her — of touching her hair, touching her skin...'

Local Conservative MP Greg Clark, for Tunbridge Wells, said a public inquiry into how Fuller carried out hundreds of sex attacks was required, adding that the investigation launched by the local NHS trust was 'not sufficient'.

Police have set up a contact centre number of as the horrifying scale of Fuller's depraved crimes was revealed after he dramatically changed his pleas this week to confess to murdering two young women.

The force told MailOnline it has spoken to the families of all the victims already identified, and that members of the public cannot help with further identification at this stage - but support services are available through the number.

So far, Kent Police detectives have formally identified 81 of his victims in the mortuary, but the investigation is still ongoing and anyone with information is urged to call the number or fill in the online form by clicking .

Fuller admitted killing Wendy Knell, 25, and Caroline Pierce, 20, in 1987 in what became known as the 'Bedsit Murders' – one of Britain's longest unsolved murder cases.

He was still working for the Maidstone and Tunbridge Wells NHS Trust when revolutionary DNA profiling techniques led police investigating the historic murders to his home in Heathfield, East Sussex, on December 3 last year.

Horrified detectives found a hidden cache of printed photos along with thousands of digital images and videos that exposed one of Britain's biggest healthcare scandals.

Fuller had spent at least 12 years abusing corpses in the mortuaries of Kent and Sussex and Tunbridge Wells hospitals.

The hoarder kept detailed handwritten diaries of his abuse, along with thousands of videos and images of himself having sex with the corpses organised into folders.

Police have established he had sexual activity with at least 100 deceased women, 81 of whom have been identified, but say there may have been many more victims.

A mother's grief and revulsion after her daughter's body was defiled by David Fuller

A woman whose daughter's body was defiled by David Fuller pleaded this week: 'This must never happen again.'

The warped hospital electrician sneaked into the mortuary at Tunbridge Wells Hospital in Kent three times to sexually abuse Azra Kemal, 24, who died after plunging from a bridge.

Horrifically, the first two attacks happened just hours before and after her grief-stricken mother, Nevres Kemal, had visited her daughter and stroked her hair to say farewell.

She said: 'I had spent two hours in the mortuary sleeping with her. And that gave me some sort of comfort. Little did I know that my daughter had been violated prior to that day and the evening of that day. So, while I'm stroking my daughter's hair, sleeping on her hair, a man had... crawled all over her skin. And there's me kissing and cuddling and saying my last goodbyes.'

Sickening: Azra Kemal was one of Fuller’s victims
Sickening: Azra Kemal was one of Fuller’s victims
Miss Kemal, who worked as a researcher for Sky News, was one of Fuller's most recent victims. He carried out his sickening assaults in July last year.

Her mother – a London social worker – told Sky News: 'Men and women up and down the country will be appalled by what they are reading.

'And I remind them that if this was your loved one you would roar with rage – and I am silently roaring. We need to respect the dead and this must never happen again.'

DS Ivan Beasley, who led Kent Police's investigation into Fuller,, said: 'It quickly became clear that the extent and scale of offending was likely to be unprecedented in the UK. We have never seen anything like this.'

More than 150 family liaison officers informed the families of the dead women simultaneously after Fuller pleaded guilty to 51 charges, including 44 relating to the necrophilia, at a hearing on October 8.

Libby Clark, of the Crown Prosecution Service, said: 'No British court has ever seen abuse on this scale against the dead before and I have no doubt he would still be offending to this day had it not been for this painstaking investigation and prosecution.'

Fuller worked at the now-closed Kent and Sussex Hospital from 1989 until 2010, when he moved to Tunbridge Wells Hospital.

In his role as electrician, he had a swipe card that allowed him unsupervised access to all parts of the hospital. Mortuary staff usually finished for the day at 4pm, while Fuller's shift was from 11am to 7pm, police said.

He would carry his bag of tools with him and ensured his abuse could not be picked up by CCTV, which covered only part of the mortuary. Mr Beasley said: 'We have evidence of him moving around the mortuary but no CCTV of him interacting with any of the bodies. All the evidence is from his own filming.'

Families of the victims were last night demanding answers from the NHS about how Fuller was able to access the dead bodies of their loved ones.

Azra Kemal's body was abused by Fuller after the 24-year-old died following a fall from a bridge in July last year. Her mother, Nevres, told Sky News: 'We have swipe cards and cameras for a reason. No one checked. It was so simple. He would actually abuse women while porters were bringing in bodies.'

Maidstone and Tunbridge Wells NHS Trust chief executive Miles Scott last night apologised to the families of Fuller's victims and said, while he was confident the mortuary was now safe, he was determined to learn if there were ways to improve.

Fuller evaded justice for 33 years after killing and sexually assaulting Miss Knell and Miss Pierce within months of each other, before decades-old DNA evidence linked him to the murders when a family member was arrested and added to the database.

When he was arrested, Fuller seemed surprised to see officers at his home, saying: 'Oh blimey.'

Fuller had previously admitted responsibility for the deaths with 'diminished responsibility' at Maidstone Crown Court – but until this week he had denied murder. Miss Knell's bloodstained body was found in her flat on June 23, 1987, after Fuller – a convicted burglar – had climbed in through the window, before beating and strangling her to death.

Miss Pierce was abducted from outside her home on November 24 the same year.

Her body, naked apart from a pair of tights, was found in a water-filled dyke near Romney Marsh three weeks later. Miss Knell's mother, Pam, whose husband Bill died in 2017 without seeing justice, said she hoped Fuller's conviction would finally allow her family to grieve.

'For 34 years, we as a family, the police and press have been focusing on what actually happened to Wendy, wanting to know who did it and how she spent her last moments alive,' she said.

'Sadly it's much worse than we could have ever imagined.

'Hopefully we can now start to grieve and move past the pain... although the timing has meant our dad is not here to share this moment as we lost him four years ago. It broke his heart he never found out before he died.'

Home Secretary Priti Patel said her heartfelt sympathies went out to all those affected by Fuller's crimes.

Police say they will never know how many women and girls David Fuller (pictured) violated – but admit it could be hundreds more
Police say they will never know how many women and girls David Fuller (pictured) violated – but admit it could be hundreds more
Tunbridge Wells MP Greg Clark told BBC Radio 4's Today programme yesterday: 'It's absolutely shocking. Two murders, two young women was shocking enough, but then to discover that over 100 that we know about and possibly many more bodies have been desecrated in this way is absolutely devastating.'

He confirmed that he had written to Mr Javid and Ms Patel calling for a public inquiry to ensure offending of Fuller's despicable nature can never be repeated. Mr Clark said that the NHS probe was 'not sufficient', adding: 'To be clear, this is without precedent. There's never been a case in Britain in which the number and the scale of the abuse of dead bodies has been revealed in this way.

'And it raises such important questions as to the security of mortuaries not just in the two local hospitals, but for every hospital in the country. Frankly one of those hospitals is a very modern, state-of-the-art one with top security systems. So if it can happen there, it can happen elsewhere.

'And I do think it's now necessary - as well as obviously seeing Fuller go to jail for what I hope will be the rest of his life - that we move on to ask serious questions as to how this could have happened and we establish that it can never happen again.

'And that is beyond the resources, beyond the capability, of a single local hospital trust. That demands a public inquiry, and I along with my neighbouring MPs have written to the Health Secretary and the Home Secretary to ask him to set that up without delay.'

Fuller will be sentenced at a later date.

[Big RR]

BSG--I never claimed to be an expert of any sort; my understanding comes from abnormal psychology classes I took years ago. And while there may be a wide array of people who sometimes engage in necrophilia, there are many necrophiliacs who have a strong predilection to having sex with dead bodies, often some already within the throes of decomposition. Certainly, there are people who may kill people and then have sex with the body, but that is not the average necrophiliac who is no more a killer than the vast numbers of other paraphiliacs of different obsessions.

And yes, some may have relationships with live women as well, but many do not and find no attraction there, much as many pedophiles find no sexual attraction to grown women. If there are some people who are attracted to sex with living persons and dead bodies, it does not seem to be very common, but I would guess someone could develop this sort of obsession after having been married a number of years, or use the spouse as a way of covering their real predilections.

However, at the very least, I do not believe, as Scooter alleged, that necrophiliacs have sex with dead bodies because they do not have access to submissive women (perhaps, live women who they would prefer to have sex with?). these are people who prefer to have sexwith dead bodies because that is the way they are driven. There may be some necrophiles like that, but I do not believe most are.

Additionally, before you extol the British system, you should note that the sentence for rape of a corpse is capped at 2 years; in most US states the sentence for desecrating (or whatever it is called) is usually capped at 5 year, more in some states. It seems the US, perhaps, takes it more seriously, even though it is not called rape.

That being said, we have beaten this dead horse (pun intended) long enough; not much more can come from contniuing the discussion.

[BoSoxGal]

I disagree with your assessment of the statutory scheme in the UK; all of the sentencing guidelines in the UK are more lenient than the USA, it has zero to do with how seriously they take the offence, which is an offence against a victim corpse, while here it is (where even illegal) an offense against public sensibility. Certainly I think one places a higher value on the individual victimized than the other.

[Big RR]

I did a quick google check and the maximum penalty for rape in the UK is life, much longer than two years.

[BoSoxGal]

I did a quick google check and the maximum penalty for rape in the UK is life, much longer than two years.

Okay now you’re moving goalposts. Your original point was that the US takes sexual intercourse with a corpse more seriously than the UK does because 5 years versus 2 - never mind actual average sentence.

And regardless what the maximum possible sentence for rape is in the UK, the average sentence is just over 10 years, while in the USA it is just under 10 years - average served around 5 years. So neither country takes violence against women - alive OR dead - all that seriously, no surprise to any woman who lives either place I’m sure.

[Big RR]

You may well be right; and both countries take sexual relations (or other acts) with a corpse less seriously.

[MGMcAnick]

We have a 75 YO friend who is retired embalmer. She says "I'm going to be cremated. I'm not letting any of those men get ahold of me". Her implication is that she is aware of men in her former profession who are necrophiles. I didn't ask if she reported any of them. Probably would never have worked again locally if she had.

[MGMcAnick]

Bedsit Killer's children are 'in total shock' ex-wife says

By Chris Jewers For Mailonline 09:28 EDT 06 Nov 2021 , updated 10:28 EDT 06 Nov 2021
1hr ago

The children of bedsit killer David Fuller are 'in total shock' and insist they 'didn't know' the man who killed two women and raped more than 100 corpses, his ex-wife has said.

BTK's wife and kids had no idea either.
I don't know if he engaged in necrophilia or not, but samples of his semen found at murder scenes were linked to him after his daughter's pap smear proved a DNA match.

[BoSoxGal]

We have a 75 YO friend who is retired embalmer. She says "I'm going to be cremated. I'm not letting any of those men get ahold of me". Her implication is that she is aware of men in her former profession who are necrophiles. I didn't ask if she reported any of them. Probably would never have worked again locally if she had.

I suspect that morgues, mortuaries and crematoria are all attractive workplaces for necrophiliacs.

I’m donating my body to science - with the hopes that I’ll be able to direct the donation to a body farm for forensic science research. I’d rather choose my own posthumous humiliation.

[Gob]

Scooter did not make a statement about live women.

I think you misinterpret my point'

I'm saying that a man who fucks a corpse is making a statement about what he wishes living, breathing women were like - devoid of any will, ability to withhold consent, or really anything that makes her a person.

Scooter stated he believes that's what the pervert wants in a woman, (unlike the four he married, or the couple he sired.) I'm stating that his views should not have any value.

[MajGenl.Meade]

I'm stating that his views should not have any value.

Presumably the guy in the news report and not Scooter? OK but his views should not have any value to whom?

Your views, other views, my views don't have any value in terms of altering reality - but does that mean all views are not worth examining / discussing / asserting / suggesting / exploring?

FWIW, Scooter's comment was, to me, unexceptionable and not really worth further cogitation or negation.

Big RR wants to insist that the necrophiliac only wishes to violate dead people but that's rather putting the cart before the horse. By definition, a necrophiliac is one who violates dead bodies. But why do they? Surely, among many complex psychologies there is certainly room for an overarching disinclination toward risking the choices and risks that a live human presents?

I imagine (though would prefer not to do so) that such a person as this sicko would probably be just as happy with a live person in a coma as he is with the dead. The point is power and compliance; the inability of the victim to choose or resist.