Family values

[Bicycle Bill]

Fuckin' A, I'm sorry I even looked at this post.

Fine.  There are no such things as family values, or social values, or moral values, or whatever, and anyone who displays any, for any reason whatsoever, is ___________________ (racist/homophobic/bigoted/hateful/or whatever your favorite catch-all "woke" slur-word might be).   As of today I don't give a damn who someone wants to live with, marry, or just fuck around with — man, woman, child, or beast.  Go ahead, do it right out in the middle of the picnic area for all I care.  Make all the ads you want to "prove" that this is the New Normal.

I may have to tolerate this line of thinking...  but I sureinhell shouldn't be forced to hold my tongue if I occasionally choose to speak in opposition of it, or to have to promote or condone it.   And if you refuse to grant me these courtesies, then you're just as bigoted and inflexible as you accuse me of being.

-"BB"-

[Scooter]

And if you refuse to grant me these courtesies, then you're just as bigoted and inflexible as you accuse me of being.

Uh, no.

Paradox of tolerance

[ex-khobar Andy]

I'm with Popper. And I think I have mentioned a few times in these pages:

We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.

BB it's not difficult.

As of today I don't give a damn who someone wants to live with, marry, or just fuck around with — man, woman, child, or beast.

That's not what tolerance is. Fuck anyone you want PROVIDED that he she they gives informed consent. By definition a child or a yak or a duck is not capable of informed consent. And, if you're a guy and into women then if you are her boss, or you are a cop and she is a prisoner, or you are a doctor and she is your patient, her consent is often forced and NOT legit. It's really not difficult.

[Burning Petard]

I think what is bothering BB, is that his own upbringing taught him conflicting values. Not a surprise, Most group norms are not noted for their consistency. In his heart of hearts, I think he knows tolerance is not enough.

Not tolerance, but acceptance, is the essence of the teachings from that itinerant carpenter/rabbi from Nazareth.

snailgate

[Jarlaxle]

I wonder how much girl-girl porn is on Bill's computer...

[Bicycle Bill]

I wonder how much girl-girl porn is on Bill's computer...

None.  So far as I'm concerned, sex was never meant to be a spectator sport.

-"BB"-

[MajGenl.Meade]

Not tolerance, but acceptance, is the essence of the teachings from that itinerant carpenter/rabbi from Nazareth

Oy vey, do you have the wrong Jesus!
- Alfie Bass

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people’s bones and all uncleanness" Matt 23:27

In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers sitting there. And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables. And he told those who sold the pigeons, “Take these things away; do not make my Father’s house a house of trade" John 2:13-17

"All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him" Matt 11:27

“Not everyone who calls me Lord will enter God’s kingdom. The only people who will enter are those who do what my Father in heaven wants. On that last Day many will call me Lord. They will say, ‘Lord, Lord, by the power of your name we spoke for God. And by your name we forced out demons and did many miracles.’ 2Then I will tell those people clearly, ‘Get away from me, you people who do wrong. I never knew you.’Matt 7:21-23

Jesus answered, “Do you think this happened to those people because they were more sinful than all other people from Galilee? 3 No, they were not. But if you don’t decide now to change your lives, you will all be destroyed like those people! 4 And what about those 18 people who died when the tower of Siloam fell on them? Do you think they were more sinful than everyone else in Jerusalem? 5 They were not. But I tell you if you don’t decide now to change your lives, you will all be destroyed too!” Luke 13:2-6

etc. It's an error to confuse love with blind acceptance. The essence of Jesus' teaching was very much not "acceptance" - it is "change", repentance and submission to God.

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[Big RR]

The litmus wasn’t the advertisement, it was how people would or would not react to the disgusting response to it. You laughed, which yes, failed the test as miserably as possible in my opinion- I find no humor in bigotry.

Well, there goes my day.

And FWIW, humor is as potent a weapon against bigotry as anything that can be be devised. We cannot always stand up to oppression directly, but humor is a backhanded way to attack the oppressors; indeed, this has always been the way throughout history. For example, comic plays and operas attacked those i power a lot more efficiently than people with torches and pitchforks ever did, and also helped to change hearts and minds. I stand behind it as a potent weapon.

And I still stand behind my belief that taking an important issue and bastardizing it to sell a product having nothing to do with it is not a step forward.

[Big RR]

Meade--true, but this Jesus also was quoted as saying:  "Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."


Puts a different spin on your post IMHO. We are not here to judge and condemn, but rather lead by example and render aid to others.

[MajGenl.Meade]

No spin at all. That's not a proscription of judgment but an endorsement. The point is one will be judged by the standard one uses. First, make sure you're clear of the fault yourself, then you can see clearly to judge.

And also no spin because the issue is whether or not the key focus of Jesus was on "acceptance". It plainly wasn't. Love, yes. Even the readiness to include - but not at the price of disobeying God.

Christian churches must remove from their community those known to be participating in obvious sin and who refuse to stop and repent. They should not associate with such people if those people claim to be Christians. The purpose of this is to encourage repentance in the sinner (1 Corinthians 5:5; 2 Thessalonians 3:14–15), protect the spiritual health of the congregation (Jude 1:12; Galatians 2:4; 2 Peter 2:1–2), and avoid giving the world excuses to slander Christ (1 Peter 2:12).

Paul asks rhetorically what he has to do with judging those who are outsiders (1Cor 5:12), meaning non-Christians. Even Paul has not been given the responsibility of judging those who have not trusted in Jesus for salvation. He will write in the following verse that God judges unbelievers.

All sinners are welcome (or should be - outliers like that Westboro baptist cult notwithstanding) and genuine faith results in change and a desire to stop sinning. It shouldn't result in a decision by some to carry on sinning because "Jesus doesn't mind". He does. All believers have to wrestle with following the sermon on the mount, or the little flat bit slightly down the mount.

[MajGenl.Meade]

We are not here to judge and condemn, but rather lead by example and render aid to others.

That's your judgement, is it?

[BoSoxGal]

Religious people are such hypocrites. The more religious, the bigger the hypocrisy. Barf.

[ex-khobar Andy]

Per Meade:

“Not everyone who calls me Lord will enter God’s kingdom. The only people who will enter are those who do what my Father in heaven wants. On that last Day many will call me Lord. They will say, ‘Lord, Lord, by the power of your name we spoke for God. And by your name we forced out demons and did many miracles.’ 2Then I will tell those people clearly, ‘Get away from me, you people who do wrong. I never knew you.’Matt 7:21-23

I was not familiar with those Bible verses; or if I ever was, I had forgotten them. I am comforted to know that many people who loudly and often call themselves Christians will find St Peter at the gate saying "Sorry the Down elevator is over there. Get in line."

[BoSoxGal]

Except that there is no St. Peter and no pearly gates and no heaven, it is all a fairy tale. I look forward to infinity spent in the blissful peace and quiet of nothingness, with no more religious hypocrisy to suffer.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Religious people are such hypocrites. The more religious, the bigger the hypocrisy. Barf.

. . . there's always room for one more.



I'm in the category "religious people" - care to justify the charge of hypocrisy with examples? If you aver that religious people are all sinners, I'd have to agree of course.

hyp·​o·​crite
1: a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2: a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

I'm not so sure of that 2nd one - if I tell a lie (being a sinner 'n all) is that contrary to my religious belief that I should not do so?

[Sue U]

Religious people are such hypocrites. The more religious, the bigger the hypocrisy. Barf.

Eh, depends on the religion, I think.

[BoSoxGal]

Religious people are such hypocrites. The more religious, the bigger the hypocrisy. Barf.

Eh, depends on the religion, I think.

I suspect that is very true, thank you for compelling my clarification that in 52 years of life experience and observation, almost all of the Christians I’ve encountered or observed were very hypocritical, especially the ones who preach the loudest.

They all live in proximity to hungry and vulnerable people in need, and if they have food sitting in their cupboards or fridge or freezer while neighbors are hungry then they are hypocrites calling themselves Christian or boasting about their Christianity and showing off their scriptural prowess. Jesus wept.

The truth is that to be a REAL Christian, to live a REAL Christian life is super fucking hard, and almost none of them do it.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Oh I see. Didn't realize you did not intend me by any of those earlier remarks. All cleared up now! Thanks!