VERDICT IS REACHED!

[ex-khobar Andy]

I've had the champagne for a while pending a guilty verdict. But somehow I am not as joyous as I expected to be. Yes he's guilty; yes he deserves punishment (but I am disgusted by the number of business people who get away with similar crap but they are not so stupid that they also run for president); but half the country thinks that he has been treated unfairly and will make an excellent president.

So I am happy and I've had a couple of glasses of champagne: but I am far from gleeful.

[Scooter]

[BoSoxGal]

I've had the champagne for a while pending a guilty verdict. But somehow I am not as joyous as I expected to be. Yes he's guilty; yes he deserves punishment (but I am disgusted by the number of business people who get away with similar crap but they are not so stupid that they also run for president); but half the country thinks that he has been treated unfairly and will make an excellent president.

So I am happy and I've had a couple of glasses of champagne: but I am far from gleeful.

I am not gleeful, but I did smile a lot last night and this morning I woke up with a sense of . . . fundamental right, as though the stars and planets realigned.

It has been beyond difficult to watch scum succeed my whole life, but especially these last 8 years with Trump and the horrible things he's done to this country. Sadly as you point out, the damage he has done to the country is deep and will abide a long time - but at least he's suffered a deep narcissistic wound by the event of being held accountable by twelve regular citizens and being officially labeled as what he has been his entire adult life - a felon.

That's something, and for me especially after having devoted most of my life to believing in the best of the criminal justice system and being utterly disappointed so many times by the reality of it, it feels very good when a case turns out the way it so clearly should have - whatever the long term consequences.

[ex-khobar Andy]

Mitch O'Connell is saying that he expects the convictions to be overturned on appeal.

Question - can Trump go straight to SCOTUS or does he have to go via NYS Court of Appeals? And, in fact, in NYS there are lower level appellate courts. Does he have to go to each in turn?

[Big RR]

Generally, I would think so; indeed, if the appeals involve state law, the SC may not eve have jurisdiction. Of course, if Constitutional challenges are raise along with state claims, they can have some jurisdiction, although it is likely that it will wait until the state issues are settled. IMHO, I think the main appeals will deal with the jury instructions (and the clarity of them) and defining exactly what the felony was (as I understand it, election fraud, and how falsifying records after the election (I think the tax documents were generated in 2017) were involved. Both are matters of state law primarily and should be settled by the state courts before the SC weighs in on any other matters--but stranger things have happened.

FWIW, I am not as happy as I thought I would be about the verdict, but I am much happier than I would have been had he been acquitted. I am very happy to see that no one is above the law, but I also think it is sad that a former president did these things to trigger the prosection. Sure, I have no doubt that other presidents may have done worse than this, and some (like Nixon) got away with this free and clear, but (like with Capone and conviction on tax evasion), you take what you can get. Hopefully, this is only the first conviction, but I am still very doubtful. And while Trump may end up paying a big fine, I am doubtful he will ever see the inside of a prison cell.

[Sue U]

Mitch O'Connell is saying that he expects the convictions to be overturned on appeal.

Question - can Trump go straight to SCOTUS or does he have to go via NYS Court of Appeals? And, in fact, in NYS there are lower level appellate courts. Does he have to go to each in turn?

Trump first must appeal the verdict to the state's intermediate appellate court: the Appellate Division, 1st Department. (NY courts are divided into four geographical departments; 1st Dept. covers Manhattan and Bronx). If he receives an adverse decision, he can then seek leave to appeal to the Court of Appeals, which is the "supreme court" of NY. (In NY, the county-level trial courts are called Supreme Court.) If the Court of Appeals denies leave to appeal or rules against him, he can petition the US Supreme Court for review, but there must be some violation of constitutional rights at issue for SCOTUS to take the case.

I wasn't at the trial, obvs., but honestly I am not seeing any legitimately appealable issues in this case. Trial courts are given a lot of latitude in how they conduct a trial, particularly with respect to evidence admitted/excluded, and any issue for appeal has to be specifically preserved in the trial record. As a general rule, the Appellate Division is limited to reviewing questions of law, not a jury's finding of facts. An appeal is always difficult, especially from a jury verdict (as opposed to a court ruling on summary judgment), and in this case I think a reversal at any level of appeal is highly unlikely.

[Crackpot]

It's part of the reason (IMO at least) Tump gets treated with "kid-gloves" in court: They want to limit potential avenues of appeal/appearance of unfair bias.

[Sue U]

And while Trump may end up paying a big fine, I am doubtful he will ever see the inside of a prison cell.

Trump Org CFO Allen Weisselberg was sentenced to 5 months for business fraud and then again for perjury. There are in fact a host of aggravating factors that argue for jail time for Trump himself: his persistent refusal to accept responsibility and complete lack of contrition; his numerous contempt-of-court violations; his surly disrespect for the justice system; and his brazen attempts to undermine the rule of law. I think a 5-month sentence for Trump would not be unwarranted. But we'll find out July 11.

[Crackpot]

I predict some jail time (1 mo. - 1 year) with probation after. (1-3 years total)

Figure pulled straight from my ass based on a Dunning-Kruger level of knowledge of the US justice system.

[Sue U]

I predict some jail time (1 mo. - 1 year) with probation after. (1-3 years total)

Figure pulled straight from my ass based on a Dunning-Kruger level of knowledge of the US justice system.

It's as valid as any pundit's opinion you'll see on the teevee.

[Big RR]

And while Trump may end up paying a big fine, I am doubtful he will ever see the inside of a prison cell.

Trump Org CFO Allen Weisselberg was sentenced to 5 months for business fraud and then again for perjury. There are in fact a host of aggravating factors that argue for jail time for Trump himself: his persistent refusal to accept responsibility and complete lack of contrition; his numerous contempt-of-court violations; his surly disrespect for the justice system; and his brazen attempts to undermine the rule of law. I think a 5-month sentence for Trump would not be unwarranted. But we'll find out July 11.

Sue--no argument here, but I just don't think the judge will sentence a former president to jail--he clearly deserves some jail time, but I doubt he'll get it; indeed, I wouldn't be surprised if the NY governor commuted the sentence to probation if he was sentenced to jail time as they would not like to incarcerate a former president, and, even if that didn't bother her, NY would especially find security almost impossible unless it was house arrest, or they built him his own jail (like Escobar in Colombia). He clearly belongs behind bars, but I don't think we'll see it.

One question I had--if the judge were to sentnence him to jail, do you think he'd defer the sentence until after the appeal? I don't know what the rules are governing this sort of deferral, but I imagine it would be pretty automatic in this sort of case.

[Crackpot]

I predict some jail time (1 mo. - 1 year) with probation after. (1-3 years total)

Figure pulled straight from my ass based on a Dunning-Kruger level of knowledge of the US justice system.

It's as valid as any pundit's opinion you'll see on the teevee.

Yet far more honest

[Scooter]

This didn't age well.



The shoe pinches a bit on the other foot, doesn't it?

[Big RR]

Spreading that Fake News again Scooter?

[Sue U]

Is the Lock-Her-Up crowd having feelings?

[Econoline]

[Scooter]

[Scooter]

[Joe Guy]

I would just like to add that Donald Trump is a convicted felon and owes a lot of money to somebody he raped and defamed. Can anyone here explain why he should once again be elected president?

Further, how can the republican party continue to support him as their party's leader? I remember when Gary Hart's chances at becoming president died when he was exposed as a cheating spouse.

Then there was this.....




There was a time when a certain degree of integrity was demanded from our politicians. And until Trump was elected, candidates at least knew how to act like a president. Anyone remember Ronald Reagan? He should have received an Oscar for his performance of a president. I hope Lord Jim is reading this comment wherever he is. Hopefully he made it to Heaven. But if he's not there yet, do you think they have wifi in Limbo?

[ex-khobar Andy]

Some part of me wants to see him sentenced to time behind bars and then to see that commuted by Gov Hochul after a few days but before his appeals start to wind their way through. To see him having to accept a commutation of his sentence from a D Governor would be worth it. He would parlay an orange jumpsuit into martyrdom but commutation would be just humiliation.