Vance VP

[BoSoxGal]

I can't see how a woman who is childless by choice would see the label as an insult.

You really can’t?

Also there are millions of women who are childless not by choice and who mourn their whole lives so because there is no distinction made when the insult is hurled, there is a lot of attendant pain.

But in a pronatal patriarchy where parenthood, especially motherhood, is fetishized - yes even women who are childless by choice and content with that lifestyle choice can still feel an insult, because they know that a good sized portion of society considers them to be a waste of space and resources given they’ve not reproduced.

[Burning Petard]

"childless by choice" What does that mean and what does it indicate? For a woman to be childless is a somewhat public-knowledge category.

But the 'by choice ' part is another thing entirely.

For me to have knowledge of a person in that category requires rather personal knowledge of that person. I have been thinking about this for a while and I cannot think of ANY living person that I can include in that category. A category with such small population seems to me to have no utility, except perhaps as an epithet, particularly when paired with cat-lady. That cat phrase brings to my mind individuals noted in the news who have come to the attention of animal protective agencies for keeping many cats in not particularly good health conditions.

Why a cat LADY? I have personal knowledge of one male who was once the site manager where I worked. After he was forced to resign for un- appreciated behavior with his female administrative assistant, about five years later he made the local newspaper for living with more than 20 cats in his small suburban house. It is unknown to me whether or not he was childless by choice.

snailgate

[MajGenl.Meade]

Can you imagine what might have happened if that couch had gotten pregnant?

Didn't I post this somewhere?


Honest it shows in preview but then vanishes?

[Big RR]

BSG--you and I are attorneys, something we chose to become, and something that a portion of society detests. But since I chose to become an attorney, I take those insults with a grain of sale and ignore them--I think most attorneys do.

So I guess I really don't understand why someone would feel the sting of an insult hurled by an asshole, rather than take solace in the fact that they know themselves and are strong enough to make the choice that is right for them. Indeed, I see it as a badge of honor. I know a number of women (and men for that manner) who are childless by choice, and they have come to the choice by significant consideration and soul searching; I can't imagine they would be offended by what an ass like Vance says (a guy who I doubt has ever had even an inkling of what introsepction means--he just lives to present the "right" face to others) . Indeed, I do think a lot of people who do have children (and are generally not very good parents), could have benefited from that same self reflection.

FWIW, as an adoptive parent I have come up against the same sort of thoughtless (or even mean-spirited) comments and don't let them bother me (I also taught my kids some pretty good comebacks when they were young). I made the choice to adopt and see it as a right decision for me (of course, my kids didn't and although I taught them to be proud of how our family was formed, I do think attacking the kids is not the same).

ETA: That being said, when I see ludicrous things on changing the voting laws to give parents more of a vote, I do draw the line. And I think everyone, parent or not, should find those proposals insulting. Trump had to look long and hard to find Dan Quayle Jr.

[datsunaholic]

I certainly know a few women who are childless by choice. But more who are childless by circumstance. Some in the latter category are actually glad to be so. I do know a few who wanted children but the clock ran out.

One woman who is childless explained to me why (and no, I hadn't asked). She feels that there isn't a good enough future left for the next generation, and she herself is in no emotional state to raise kids. Now, it's entirely possible she could change her mind (she is after all still under 30) but her choice has gotten her basically disowned by her parents (who are heavily MAGA). Her father in particular thinks she should be married and raising kids already, preferably to a MAGA type like him (and not like the starving artist types she usually goes with).

But patriarchy is still alive and well. I still hear the stories of childless single (and even some married) women who have wanted to get their tubes tied and no doctor would do so because their future or current husband might object. That choice should be made by no man. It's hers and hers alone.

When I still thought dating was possible for me, I found it very hard to find (let alone meet) women who were childless. Or at least ones that met my way too strict criteria. But I'm shallow like that, so best I remain single (and childless) as well. Why guys seem to get a break on that vs women I don't know. Well, my dear departed grandmother used to give me grief over not giving her grandchildren with the family name (neither my brother or myself have ever married or had children, so in her eyes my grandfather's line ended with us).

[Big RR]

But patriarchy is still alive and well. I still hear the stories of childless single (and even some married) women who have wanted to get their tubes tied and no doctor would do so because their future or current husband might object. That choice should be made by no man. It's hers and hers alone.

Now I will admit that marriage is a partnership, but early on my wife and I made a decision to permit either of us to veto an important, life changing, decision which affects us both (like whether to have children); so, unless we both wanted children, we would not have them (ditto for adoption). It's not perfect, but both of us agreed that it was not appropriate to make ether of us a parent without the other agreeing to it. We dd the same thing when we went through infertility treatments, and I was the first to discuss stopping them (for a variety of reasons). I do understand that this could cause problems in a marriage (or even end it), but so could unwanted parenthood (and that's even more unfair to the kids). I would hope my wife would discuss sterilization with me before she chose to undergo a procedure, as would I, but it is ultimately her choice.

Sure, some people regret their choices later on, but that is life; when you make a choice in most things, you basically erase a good number of available options, but that's part of living with the choices you made--be it choosing a profession, remaining single or getting married, having children, or any of the myriad choices you have available. You may get a redo on some, but some choices might well be irrevocable. Welcome to the real world.

ETA: When I worked for DYFS, I did find a number of times where a child wound up being placed in foster care rather than with his/her grandparents because one of them (usually the male) refused to accept custody. Now to me, that is something I could not do, but I do understand it, and if someone wanted to live the last few years of their life without being bogged down by childcare responsibilities, it is their choice (and I don't think the grandchild would be better off with them). Is it selfish? Sure. But so is taking on the care of a child you do not want just to please others.

FWIW, I can also recall a time when the grandparents split over this (made me wonder how good the relationship was to begin with), and the grandmother got custody.

[Scooter]

[Crackpot]

I wouldn’t be surprised if the pervert got off on that.

[Scooter]

It didn't take long for Republicans, in the person of Vance, to begin their attempts to swift boat Walz on his 24 years of military service. Pete Buttigieg was having none of it, and managed to tie it to some of Vance's other cringe moments:

[Scooter]

[Scooter]

[Scooter]

The throwing under the bus is in full swing.

[Crackpot]

That’s not throwing under the bus that’s a complete inability for self reflection.

[Scooter]

Vance in drag while he was at Yale Law. A number of drag names for him are circulating. My favorite is Sofa Loren.

[ex-khobar Andy]

The Divan Ms Vance?

[Joe Guy]

I wonder....

Did J.D. Vance couch his lance or did he lance his couch?

[Sue U]

Oh, last week I saw that his drag queen name was Jizzy Divan.

[Scooter]

[Sue U]

Never Walz!

http://www.neverwalz.com/

[Scooter]