News headline about Tyler Robinson:
"Suspect appears in court in anti-suicide vest, faces death penalty"
Irony
Re: Irony
They can't be allowed to rob us of the satisfaction, don't you know?
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan
~ Carl Sagan
Re: Irony
What is a anti-suicide vest and why is it needed in court; is he going to stab himself with a pen or pencil. Or maybe pound his head with the gavel? (then again, I guess the vest wouldn't help for that, would it?).
BSG--Us? Or is that more irony?
BSG--Us? Or is that more irony?
Re: Irony
Yes, definitely irony.
Like many rural Americans with at least one Republican parent, I grew up believing in the death penalty - but I didn't think about it much. I certainly didn't cry when Bundy was fried by Florida, but I didn't think much about any issues because I was still very naive about the American criminal justice system and how utterly flawed and in some ways broken it really is.
Then I saw Dead Man Walking in college and I started really thinking, including reading Sister Prejean's book upon which the film was based. Later in law school as a 1L I interned at the ABA's Death Penalty Moratorium Project at its inception in 1997, where my job was mostly collecting stories from the various states about death penalty cases and the conditions under which they were prosecuted and defended.
My first year in law school I read journal articles by Stephen Bright, and my thinking was radicalized by reading about Burdine v. Johnson, in which the 5th Circuit initially upheld a death penalty conviction in which the defense counsel slept for long periods of time during both trial and sentencing phase of the proceedings (they later overturned themselves in 2001, after I was out of law school).
I was appalled, and it changed my thinking entirely - as did much of my other reading then and continued research over the decades since about the disparities in applying the death penalty to poor defendants and those of color, as well as the economic realities regarding the very high cost of pursuing the death penalty (3-10x more expensive than housing someone on an LWOP sentence even if the conviction comes in the defendant's young adulthood) and how those costs obviously harm the criminal justice system as a whole by reducing resources substantially just so we can fry some folks and do some vengeance.
I believe the American obsession with the death penalty is deeply rooted in racism and the kind of hatred that this whole Charlie Kirk matter has highlighted, and I'm sorry that the Utah County Attorney didn't have the strength of character to choose the path of mercy rather than the path of hate. I don't believe for one single second his assertions that he was not at all influenced by the state and federal actors who reached out to him to weigh in on the matter.
Like many rural Americans with at least one Republican parent, I grew up believing in the death penalty - but I didn't think about it much. I certainly didn't cry when Bundy was fried by Florida, but I didn't think much about any issues because I was still very naive about the American criminal justice system and how utterly flawed and in some ways broken it really is.
Then I saw Dead Man Walking in college and I started really thinking, including reading Sister Prejean's book upon which the film was based. Later in law school as a 1L I interned at the ABA's Death Penalty Moratorium Project at its inception in 1997, where my job was mostly collecting stories from the various states about death penalty cases and the conditions under which they were prosecuted and defended.
My first year in law school I read journal articles by Stephen Bright, and my thinking was radicalized by reading about Burdine v. Johnson, in which the 5th Circuit initially upheld a death penalty conviction in which the defense counsel slept for long periods of time during both trial and sentencing phase of the proceedings (they later overturned themselves in 2001, after I was out of law school).
I was appalled, and it changed my thinking entirely - as did much of my other reading then and continued research over the decades since about the disparities in applying the death penalty to poor defendants and those of color, as well as the economic realities regarding the very high cost of pursuing the death penalty (3-10x more expensive than housing someone on an LWOP sentence even if the conviction comes in the defendant's young adulthood) and how those costs obviously harm the criminal justice system as a whole by reducing resources substantially just so we can fry some folks and do some vengeance.
I believe the American obsession with the death penalty is deeply rooted in racism and the kind of hatred that this whole Charlie Kirk matter has highlighted, and I'm sorry that the Utah County Attorney didn't have the strength of character to choose the path of mercy rather than the path of hate. I don't believe for one single second his assertions that he was not at all influenced by the state and federal actors who reached out to him to weigh in on the matter.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan
~ Carl Sagan
Re: Irony
I can't argue; but I will say, it is rare that I despair for the convicted person after and execution; most of the time I do not know enough about their crime or trial to form an opinion about them. But I do despair that this is what we, as a people, are doing to other human beings, however vile their crimes. And I despair that we still do it. It's not a matter of guilt or innocence, or how fair the trial was, it is the fact that we, as a people, are empowering our government to kill our fellow human beings.
Re: Irony
On that basic point I fully agree - how can we tell our children that killing is wrong, when we kill citizens for *any* reason, even if they are guilty of heinous crimes?
But since I've spent countless hours studying this issue, I *do* despair for convicted people who are executed - because I know that in my lifetime alone, over 200 people on death row have been exonerated by DNA and other evidence and released from prison, sometimes after decades of living under the spectre of impending execution. It is an inescapable conclusion that we as a country have executed actually innocent people convicted within our deeply flawed criminal justice system.
After serving as a public defender and prosecutor in said system, I no longer trust it as far as I could throw it. Yes, it is better than most alternatives ever devised by humans - but it is still so deeply flawed and in some cases utterly broken that it is unconscionable that we should impose a permanent sentence like death upon any defendant, no matter how heinous the conduct for which they were convicted.
Just this morning I spent some time in conversation with citizens in Maine discussing a pretty awful case of police brutality caught on camera and about which the police LIED and LIED some more, to the point that ultimately all charges (many fabricated) against the defendants were dropped with no comment by prosecutors, whilst the lying liar testiliars in uniform were all cleared by their superiors and promoted to boot. Meanwhile national experts on policing, nearly all of them veterans of policing, have excoriated the use of force conduct as wholly unsupported by the circumstances - evidence which the civil attorney representing the victims will undoubtedly use to convince a jury of the victim's peers to find in favor of him, if it even gets to court.
Watching the unfolding of the Karen Read trials in the Commonwealth over the last couple of years my eyes were opening to a sad reality: the police are no longer trusted by the average American citizen, even a great many of the white middle class. And the police have nobody but themselves to blame for this, but it is prosecutors who face the fallout in trying to make cases against actual criminals when those cases rely on jurors believing an officer who comes into court, swears an oath and takes the witness stand. Citizens don't believe cops, because cops lie far too often and there is abundant video evidence now of this reality.
It's a sad state of affairs we are in.
But since I've spent countless hours studying this issue, I *do* despair for convicted people who are executed - because I know that in my lifetime alone, over 200 people on death row have been exonerated by DNA and other evidence and released from prison, sometimes after decades of living under the spectre of impending execution. It is an inescapable conclusion that we as a country have executed actually innocent people convicted within our deeply flawed criminal justice system.
After serving as a public defender and prosecutor in said system, I no longer trust it as far as I could throw it. Yes, it is better than most alternatives ever devised by humans - but it is still so deeply flawed and in some cases utterly broken that it is unconscionable that we should impose a permanent sentence like death upon any defendant, no matter how heinous the conduct for which they were convicted.
Just this morning I spent some time in conversation with citizens in Maine discussing a pretty awful case of police brutality caught on camera and about which the police LIED and LIED some more, to the point that ultimately all charges (many fabricated) against the defendants were dropped with no comment by prosecutors, whilst the lying liar testiliars in uniform were all cleared by their superiors and promoted to boot. Meanwhile national experts on policing, nearly all of them veterans of policing, have excoriated the use of force conduct as wholly unsupported by the circumstances - evidence which the civil attorney representing the victims will undoubtedly use to convince a jury of the victim's peers to find in favor of him, if it even gets to court.
Watching the unfolding of the Karen Read trials in the Commonwealth over the last couple of years my eyes were opening to a sad reality: the police are no longer trusted by the average American citizen, even a great many of the white middle class. And the police have nobody but themselves to blame for this, but it is prosecutors who face the fallout in trying to make cases against actual criminals when those cases rely on jurors believing an officer who comes into court, swears an oath and takes the witness stand. Citizens don't believe cops, because cops lie far too often and there is abundant video evidence now of this reality.
It's a sad state of affairs we are in.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan
~ Carl Sagan
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Bicycle Bill
- Posts: 9765
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- Location: Living in a suburb of Berkeley on the Prairie along with my Yellow Rose of Texas
Re: Irony
Remember, though, that it was Utah that carried out one of the first executions in the 'modern' era, allowing Gary Gilmore to opt for death in front of a firing squad back in 1977 ... so they've got a tradition to uphold here.BoSoxGal wrote: ↑Wed Sep 17, 2025 5:35 pm... and I'm sorry that the Utah County Attorney didn't have the strength of character to choose the path of mercy rather than the path of hate. I don't believe for one single second his assertions that he was not at all influenced by the state and federal actors who reached out to him to weigh in on the matter.
-"BB"-
Yes, I suppose I could agree with you ... but then we'd both be wrong, wouldn't we?
Re: Irony
Perhaps, but then groups of those same citizens still convict (and even impose the death penalty) is cases where police testimony is offered and is key to the case of the prosecution.Citizens don't believe cops, because cops lie far too often and there is abundant video evidence now of this reality.
And while I am against the death penalty on moral grounds, I also agree with the argument that in a system as flawed and inexact as ours, imposing an irreversible penalty makes no sense.
As for despairing for the executed I am certain that there are some--perhaps a good number--I would despair for if I had sufficient information about the crime and the evidence, but, unlike you, I haven't made a study of this. But I also believe there are individuals who are convicted who actually have committed disgusting and heinous crimes on their victims and whiIe abhor any execution as I stated above, I do not think these individuals somehow merit my sympathy. I despair of the societal-sanctioned killing, but do not forget what these individuals have done, not the suffering of the victim and the victim's family.
I have never practiced criminal law (at least above a misdemeanor level); when I did work for DYFS, I came across some of these people who physically/sexually/mentally abused children, some as young as infants, and realized that these sort of indivudals exist. I did not represent them (I represented the children), but while some fad histories as troubled as many of the kids I represent, I also saw the selfishness and lack of remorse for the horrible acts they did. I'm sure you came across the same sort of people in your prosecutorial/PD career--narcissists who would make Trump seem tame--and while I fully supported recognition of their rights in the courts, I had no compunction (in some cases) in joining with DYFS to terminate their parental rights.
I recall case where the caregiver brought about the death of an infant due to neglect (we were involved because she also had to other children), and was completely free of any remorse. If she were convicted of some sort of depraved heart murder (so far as I know she was not) and executed (even if she were, in NJ she would likely not be executed), I would despair of the killing, but not for her (don't get me wrong, she may well have been mentally ill, but that's another issue that we did not delve into--if the criminal trial didn't, it would likely be a travesty).
Re: Irony
Yes, I saw many equally horrible things in the dependency/neglect cases where I served as counsel for children, counsel for parents, and as representative of DPHHS/Child and Family Services.
I also experienced pretty awful abuse as a child myself, although not as horrific as some that I've seen it was also more horrific than some that I've seen actionable under law - but those were different times when abusing your children was more socially acceptable or at least nobody else's business. The area of child welfare law is fairly new, as it was only in our lifetimes that federal legislation was passed mandating reporting and services to children at risk and as we both know the system is vastly underfunded and falls very short in many cases to this day.
That is in fact one of the strongest reasons I personally am opposed to the death penalty; many of the very broken people who end up in the criminal justice system were broken by their parents or guardians and society failed to intervene or protect them. It is therefore in my mind unconscionable for us to kill them for ending up the way they did - yes, some of us endure terrible abuse and don't go on to abuse or be violent criminals, but every brain is different and we take our eggshells as we find them.
I also experienced pretty awful abuse as a child myself, although not as horrific as some that I've seen it was also more horrific than some that I've seen actionable under law - but those were different times when abusing your children was more socially acceptable or at least nobody else's business. The area of child welfare law is fairly new, as it was only in our lifetimes that federal legislation was passed mandating reporting and services to children at risk and as we both know the system is vastly underfunded and falls very short in many cases to this day.
That is in fact one of the strongest reasons I personally am opposed to the death penalty; many of the very broken people who end up in the criminal justice system were broken by their parents or guardians and society failed to intervene or protect them. It is therefore in my mind unconscionable for us to kill them for ending up the way they did - yes, some of us endure terrible abuse and don't go on to abuse or be violent criminals, but every brain is different and we take our eggshells as we find them.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
~ Carl Sagan
~ Carl Sagan
Re: Irony
Agreed BSG, but I just cannot generate the sympathy for some of them; it's a problem I have to deal with. But, likewise, I cannot generate much sympathy for a narcissist like Trump.
ETA: FWIW, my view is not ironclad; I recall one mother who was very neglectful (and a serious drug addict despite several trips to rehab and enrollment in treatment) who neglected her kids. She lost one and then went out and got pregnant again (refusing any family planning counseling) and then seriously neglected him as well. The sad part, she grew up in the custody of the system and was let down again an again (placed in abusive situations with relatives and foster care); she really didn't stand a chance. She ultimately died of an overdose (I don't know if it was suicide or accidental) and that hit me a bit hard. For the only time when I worked in this area, I went to her wake. I arranged with the funeral home to come in advance so I wouldn't cause a problem with the family, but did meet them on the way out; they were about as I expected. Her death hit me kind of hard as I did get to know her some, and she was more like a kid than anything else. She really couldn't be the parent for my client, but she was somewhat pathetic and, despite what she did, she deserved better. Her son was placed with a good adoptive family and hopefully this will break the cycle
ETA: FWIW, my view is not ironclad; I recall one mother who was very neglectful (and a serious drug addict despite several trips to rehab and enrollment in treatment) who neglected her kids. She lost one and then went out and got pregnant again (refusing any family planning counseling) and then seriously neglected him as well. The sad part, she grew up in the custody of the system and was let down again an again (placed in abusive situations with relatives and foster care); she really didn't stand a chance. She ultimately died of an overdose (I don't know if it was suicide or accidental) and that hit me a bit hard. For the only time when I worked in this area, I went to her wake. I arranged with the funeral home to come in advance so I wouldn't cause a problem with the family, but did meet them on the way out; they were about as I expected. Her death hit me kind of hard as I did get to know her some, and she was more like a kid than anything else. She really couldn't be the parent for my client, but she was somewhat pathetic and, despite what she did, she deserved better. Her son was placed with a good adoptive family and hopefully this will break the cycle
Last edited by Big RR on Thu Sep 18, 2025 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Irony
I find the division of good cops and bad cops falls pretty solidly on if they want body cams or not. Those who don’t have reason for their actions not being seen those who do want the additional proof they provide.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.
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ex-khobar Andy
- Posts: 5770
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Re: Irony
You may have seen the movie 'Ten Rillington Place' about a famous murder which occurred in London in 1949. Timothy Evans was executed for the murder. It later transpired that his landlord, John Christie, had carried out several murders at the same address: Christie was apprehended, tried and executed (UK did not give up the death penalty until the late 60s). It was universally acknowledged that Evans, who was what we would now call intellectually challenged, was wrongfully convicted and hanged. I read about this case when I was 15 or so; I obtained a short pamphlet written about the case (it's one of those books I have and I always know exactly where it is, and I have it in my hands now) which cost me one shilling and sixpence (about a dime in current US money) and I have been an opponent of the death penalty ever since. It is irrevocable - put someone away for a life sentence and if you get it wrong then some sort of compensation, however inadequate, is possible.
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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Irony
In a parallel universe . . . and a similar trial . . .
FORT PIERCE, Fla. — The trial of Ryan Wesley Routh came to a dramatic end Tuesday when he tried to stab himself in the neck with a pen after a Florida jury found him guilty of attempting to assassinate Donald Trump last year on a golf course.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts
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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Irony
Ouch! I'm thinking he should be charged with a second case of failed assassination
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts